Elena and the ring

[dlbpharmd]

In TPTP, at the Colussus, the resurrected Elena has control of the white gold ring and the Staff of Law, and attempts to bring down the Colussus of the Fall. The ring had been removed from Covenant without his consent.

My question is: would the ring have responed to her will? Since Covenant had not given the ring to her, how did she expect to command the wild magic?

[Han-shan]

Wishful thinking. Foul wished Elena could use it, but she never would have been able to. But Foul pretty much knew that. He was just testing to see if it could be done. No point in leaving that stone unturned.

But Covenant is the white gold. He is the power. Others could only use it - him - with his permission. (Amusingly, he never really gave himself that permission.)

[Forestal]

untill the 2nd crons, when he used it all the damn time...

i ask this: who but a mad man would shave using wild magic??

[Han-shan]

He was only able to use it in the 2nd Chrons because the venom acted as a trigger, as did the Illearth Stone and Sunder's sunstone.

Covenant could never give himself permission to be powerful, because it was so against his needs as a leper. (Also, in the beginning of his adventures in the Land, because he was such an emotional basketcase.) Therefore, he needed another explanation for his ability to do such extraordinary things. Hence, the triggers. As though he was saying, "It's not me, it's my ring and the trigger. I can use this power when conditions are right for its existence, but it's not like its me."

[KaosArcana]

Han-shan:

Wishful thinking. Foul wished Elena could use it, but she never would have been able to. But Foul pretty much knew that. He was just testing to see if it could be done. No point in leaving that stone unturned.

Disagree.

The evidence in the text is pretty explicit that SHE could use it, IMO.

When Elena held the ring, the krill reflected this fact by burning with
the emerald cold of the Illearth Stone. When Covenant got the ring
back, the krill returned to echoing wild magic.

(Now I think it could be argued that Elena could use the ring because
she was Covenant's child ... after all, if he is the wild magic and he has
a child in the Land, wouldn't that child be at least partially wild magic
herself? *G*)

Also, the Kemper seemed to think that he could use the wild magic if
he gained the ring from Covenant. I know some of you are going to
say that he would have used his magic to coerce Covenant into giving
him the ring, but if coercion would work why didn't an ur-vile or Raver
use that on Covenant?

[Han-shan]

It seems to me that that evidence is open to interpretation. The fact that there were "faint glimmerings of emerald" deep within the krill's gem could simply mean that the Illearth Stone's wielder was in possession of Covenant's ring. Maybe that is just wild magic's way of alerting everyone to the fact that white gold is in the Land, so there's some hope, but is not under the control of somebody good, so don't count on it being able to help any. Certainly it means something. It's obviously not coincidence that there were emerald glimmerings at that exact time. But exactly what it meant is largely a matter of speculation.

And the Kemper had never seen white gold before either, and couldn't be certain of how it worked. He was able to manipulate the bolts of wild magic that Covenant shot out at him, but that's not proof that he could have generated those bolts himself.

I am very intrigued by your thought that Elena may have been able to use it because she was Covenant's daughter! I had never thought of that before. Hmmmm. It could be that wild magic does not get passed along genetically. OTOH...

[UrLord]

this brings up another question that had always been nagging me...I thought at some point that the books said that gold is not found in the world of the Land at all, yet somehow the Kemper had it. So...where did he get it? Is he also from Covenant's world? Maybe you Chronicles experts can enlighten me...

[Furls Fire]

The Kemper didn't have white gold. He wanted Covenant's ring because it was white gold. There was no white gold anywhere, that's why the Creator chose it to be the talisman of the wild magic, the keystone of the Arch of Time. The wild magic was outside the Law, it was outside the Words of Power, it was outside the 7 Wards.

There is wild magic graven in every rock, contained for white gold to unleash or control
gold, rare metal, not born of the Land, nor ruled, limited, subdued by the Law with which the Land was created
(for the Land is beautiful, as if it were a strong soul's dream of peace and harmony, and Beauty is not possible without discipline and the Law which gave birth to Time is the Land's Creator's self-control)
but keystone rather, pivot, crux for the anarchy out of which Time was made, and with Time Earth, and with Earth those who people it:
wild magic restrained in every particle of life, and unleashed or controlled by gold (not born of the Land)
because that power is the anchor of the arch of life that spans and masters Time: and white -- white gold, not ebon, ichor, incarnadine, viridian because white is the hue of bone: structure of flesh, discipline of life.


This power is a paradox, because Power does not exist without Law, and wild magic has no Law;
and white gold is a paradox, because it speaks for the bone of life, but has no part of the Land.

And he who wields white wild magic gold is a paradox for he is everything and nothing, hero and fool, potent, helpless and with the one word of truth or treachery he will save or damn the Earth because he is mad and sane, cold and passionate, lost and found.

No one had white gold but Covenant...

[Fist and Faith]

Right. The books said that white gold is not found in the world of the Land at all.

[Furls Fire]

Yep, the Kemper may have had all sorts of nice shiney pretty things...but he didn't have the white gold. That's why he tried to take control of Covenant.

Oh, and I just LOVE that part, when Kasreyn tried to take him...

But when she touched him, the gap was bridged, and his emptiness flooded into her. At once, she could see everything, hear everything. All her senses functioned normally. Her companions had fallen silent: they were staring at her in despair. Kasreyn stood near Covenant with his ocular held ready, his hands trembling as if they could no longer suppress their caducity. But behind what she saw and heard, she wailed like a foretaste of her coming life. She was a child in a field of flowers, and the older boy she adored had left her. The love had gone out of the sunlight, leaving the day bereft as if all joy were dead.

Yet she saw him-saw the boy in the man, Thomas Covenant-as life and will spread back into his limbs. She saw him take hold of himself, lift his head. All her senses functioned normally. She could do nothing but wail as he turned toward Kasreyn, exposed himself to the Kemper's geas. He was still too far away from himself to make any defense.

But before the Kemper was able to use his ocular, the instructions she had left in Covenant reached him. He looked straight at Kasreyn and obeyed her.

Distinctly, he articulated one clear word:

"Nom."

Totally awesome!!!!

[Fist and Faith]

What an amazing thing it was to read that for the first time!!!!!!!!!!

[Furls Fire]

I nearly fainted!!

[Fist and Faith]

Right???? I had the same look on my face that the Kemper gets!

[Furls Fire]

LOL!!

You mean this look....

That name seemed to stun the air, appalling the very stone of the Sandhold.

From a great and lonely distance, Covenant watched Kasreyn of the Gyre recoil. The Kemper dropped his eyepiece. Dismay and rage crumpled his old face. But he could not call back the word Covenant had spoken. An anguish of indecision gripped him for a moment, paralyzing him. Then the old fear rose up in him, and he fled to preserve his life.

[KaosArcana]

Han-shan:

It seems to me that that evidence is open to interpretation. The fact that there were "faint glimmerings of emerald" deep within the krill's gem could simply mean that the Illearth Stone's wielder was in possession of Covenant's ring. Maybe that is just wild magic's way of alerting everyone to the fact that white gold is in the Land, so there's some hope, but is not under the control of somebody good, so don't count on it being able to help any. Certainly it means something. It's obviously not coincidence that there were emerald glimmerings at that exact time. But exactly what it meant is largely a matter of speculation.

Nope. That's not what it meant. You're going to make me quote it
again, aren't you?

Without a word, Amatin turned and left him alone the knowledge
that Covenant's ring had fallen into the power of the Despiser.

And then later ...

He bore the krill within his robe and could feel Lord Foul's sick
emerald hold upon it growing. Soon, he knew the cold of the
green would begin to burn his flesh.

And still later, when Covenant had regained his ring and destroyed
the Staff of Law ....

But now Mhoram Mhoram felt the fire which burned against his flesh
under his robe. In a rush of exaltation, he understood it, grasped its
meaning intuitively. As the Stone reached its height over his head,
he tore open his robe and grasped Loric's krill.

Its gem blazed like a hot white brazier in his hands. It was charged
to overflowing with echoes of wild magic; he could feel its keenness
as he gripped its hilt.

It was a weapon strong enough to bear any might.

(The last line doesn't really prove my point but it was too good
to not include. *G*)

The krill was in tune with Covenant's ring. When he was present, it
blazed with his power. When his ring was in the hands of the
Despiser, the krill likewise reflected this state. When the ring was
recovered, the krill blazed with wild magic ... roughly around the
same time that Covenant used it to destroy the Staff of Law.

When Elena held the ring, it-- and by extension, the krill-- were
corrupted by Foul's power. That means that Elena Foul-wife had
some kind of power over the ring ... and wild magic.

Also, come to think of it, remember in _Lord Foul's Bane_ when
Drool's power was giving the ring a blood red cast to it?

I am very intrigued by your thought that Elena may have been able to use it because she was Covenant's daughter! I had never thought of that before. Hmmmm. It could be that wild magic does not get passed along genetically. OTOH...

Actually, I hadn't thought of that myself until I wrote it.

[Han-shan]

It was a weapon strong enough to bear any might.

(The last line doesn't really prove my point but it was too good to not include. *G*)

I sure wasn't going to give you grief for including it!

Anyway, the reason I think those things should be interpreted other than the way you have is because I think it makes Foul out to be an idiot. You can't tell me he wasn't watching the scene at the Colossus very carefully. If Elena could have used it, I wouldn't think Foul would have let the situation fall apart like it did. He could have commanded her to do anything at any point. But instead, he had her play games, giving them time to fight back, talk to Triock... He never even had her make a spark, either to prove that she could or to dishearten the good guys. Wouldn't Foul be just as aware of her ability to use it as anybody else would be?

Actually, I hadn't thought of that myself until I wrote it.

Spur of the moment greatness.

[variol son]

(Now I think it could be argued that Elena could use the ring because she was Covenant's child ... after all, if he is the wild magic and he has a child in the Land, wouldn't that child be at least partially wild magic herself? *G*)

I always thought that the fact that TC was Elena's father had a lot to do with why she was High Lord. When TC asked Mhoram why he wasn't High Lord in TIW, Mhoram kinda evaded the question. I was thinking that the Council chose Elena because she was the Ringthane's daughter. After all, she was concieved through rape and violence, which is very passionate. I'm pretty sure that when TC asks Amok how to use the White Gold in TIW, Amok answers with something about passion and mastery.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Forestal]

it seems that everyone is keeping something from covenant doesn't it?

perhaps its just because they fear the wrath of the white gold....

and i love that paragraph with mhoram and the krill... 1st time i read it i was like "yeah mhoram go kick some raver ass mate "

as a point how do u promounce mhoram? i've always thought M-hor-Am... but i could b wrong...

[KaosArcana]

Han-shan:

Anyway, the reason I think those things should be interpreted other than the way you have is because I think it makes Foul out to be an idiot. You can't tell me he wasn't watching the scene at the Colossus very carefully. If Elena could have used it, I wouldn't think Foul would have let the situation fall apart like it did. He could have commanded her to do anything at any point. But instead, he had her play games, giving them time to fight back, talk to Triock... He never even had her make a spark, either to prove that she could or to dishearten the good guys. Wouldn't Foul be just as aware of her ability to use it as anybody else would be?

Foul isn't omniscient or omnipotent. He really isn't all that bright, when
you think about it. Think about it, with the Illearth Stone he was the
mightiest power in the Land during the times when the white gold was
not present. All he had to do was use the Illearth Stone to destroy the
Lords before they had a chance to master the Staff of Law, and then
summon Covenant at his leisure and then either torture him or some
other innocent bystander in front of him until Covenant gave up his
ring. Instead, he took the long way which requried decades of work.


So, yeah, I can totally buy that Foul didn't know for sure whether or
not Elena could use the ring.

[Forestal]

the fact that HT could use the ring makes me think that if elena really wanted to, she could have....

but think back to kevin's spectre, at 1st he could control himself, before he was mastered... perhaps elena had more willpower than kevin... perhaps she couldn't use the white gold because she didn't want to