Harry Potter 7 release date July 21

[A Gunslinger]

Storm, what about Snape? Good or bad?

A question that truly pulls at the strings of my heart...Snape is probably my favorite character after Sirius. I believe that Snape serves only one master, himself. There are elements (such as his hatred of James or his love of Lily) that can make the case strong for him to be purely a dark wizard. I do believe though that he will be "good". Dumbledore gave him chances no one else would have, he would have been rotting in Azkaban if not for DD's speaking to the Wizengamot on his behalf. More than anything though is my belief that JO is trying to break barriers that her style of literature hasn't really crossed; the world is not made up of only good people and death eaters.

The eyes of the Storm sees Snape as good

You are a gal (or guy) after my own heart! Cameraman Jenn believes my pet theory of Snape loving Lily to be a load of grade-A hooey. I bleive that such a love (whether returned or not) explains a number of motivations for a number of characters and events which have occurred!

[storm]

Well certainly one thing from GoF that has yet to fully play out is "Dumbledore's Twinkle in his eye" near the end when Harry returns from he Graveyard. So far, we have seen no advantage for Harry in Voldemort using his blood. It seems to have all been Voldemort, tighter mental connection, able to touch Harry, brought back to life, etc. Dumbledore saw something in this that gives Harry the neccessary upper hand in order to dispatch Voldemort (Unless it perhaps has something to do with Harry's being a Horcrux or Not? Perhaps something about it proved Harry wasn't and that relieved Dumbledore, or perhaps it proved he was, which told Dumbledore Harry couldn't be killed by Voldemort without killing himself? Not sure, but definitely still needs an explanation).

Also, from OotP, the Veil, IMHO, was way too big a revelation to simply be used merely to off Sirius. Surely it (And the voices eminating from within) must come up again in the final book.

I'm not sure the "Mortal Danger" clock has played it's full part yet, and finally, Harry will likely get a great command of the Occul/Legilimancys

The gleam in DD's eye thing has had me also quite puzzled, was this triumph for him that Lily's blood bond had in fact been a powerful charm? Was he content that making Harry live with the Dursley's did in fact save him or is there something about the blood connection that DD saw that will be revealed.

The veil has been the source of much bantering among the HP fansites. Among the endless "harry is a horcrux" theories, there is speculation that Harry will pass through the veil to destroy the final horcrux and be re-united with his dead. If this is in fact what happens, i've wasted a lot of my time on an author that wasn't as good as i thought she was. Tragic hero stories suck, wanna be a tragic hero, bind the arch of time like TC did or shut the hell up.

Interesting take on the clock, since Harry in fact isn't on that clock, what do you believe its significance could be?

[storm]

You are a gal (or guy) after my own heart! Cameraman Jenn believes my pet theory of Snape loving Lily to be a load of grade-A hooey. I bleive that such a love (whether returned or not) explains a number of motivations for a number of characters and events which have occurred!

<----------is a guy

We are on the same wavelength, I don't think Lily ever loved Snape, but I have no question that Snape loved her. Snape was deep in the enemy's council at the time of Harry's parents death. I believe that LV knew Snape was in love with Lily, Snape may have even asked LV to spare her if possible. The bit about her not having to die is far too compelling for it to be added fluff. Snape loved the dark arts because they mimicked his heart, he was poor, he had no friends.

Something else fascinating about Snape, if not for his dark heart, he'd of made a great gryffindor. The man has a set of balls, he made an unbreakable vow to protect draco when he knew draco had an impossible mission...cowards do not openly welcome the throngs of death. Yet, when you look at one of his classmates, the hated wormtail *my least favorite character*, wormtail was a little bitch. He hid behind Sirius and James, ran to LV when it suited him, lived for 13 years as a rat...if anyone ever belonged in Slytherin, it was wormtail.

[A Gunslinger]

Storm...you da man. Take THAT CammyJenn! Boo-ya!

Snape loved from afar, my theory states.

I think that Snape was promised that by betraying James, he'd have his chance w/ her. LV probably didn't care to live up to the bargain, or didn't expect her to give her life...no matter.

Betrayed and alone, Snape went to Dumbledore and confessed the whole story. Dumbledore was all about the power of love, so I think that this is why he trusted Snape so. His confessed love for Lily driving him to lonely desepration. Dumbledore would believe in anyone who bared their sould so completely.

I beleive that the Pensieve will tell the whole tale sooner or later.

The other cool thing about Snape is his ability to see theforest for trees and despite his dislike for Harry, continue to aid the good side no matter how hard.

The other thing to keep in mind is that we see everything through a lens of Harry's perception. He hates Snape nad therefore every time he is described, it is likely the characterization of Snapes deeds is tilted towards the unseemly!

Free Severus!

[sindatur]

Interesting take on the clock, since Harry in fact isn't on that clock, what do you believe its significance could be?

Arthur mentioned what a horrifying sight it is to find the Dark Mark above your home, indicated Voldemort or the Death Eaters had been there doing horrible things and there are just too many Weasleys involved too heavily in the fight for the odds to be in favor of them all living. It came up for Arthur when he was bit, but and the Dark Mark was used in this manner for the Invasion of Hogwarts, but I'm not sure that was the end of it's usage in the story.

[storm]

Storm...you da man. Take THAT CammyJenn! Boo-ya!

Snape loved from afar, my theory states.

I think that Snape was promised that by betraying James, he'd have his chance w/ her. LV probably didn't care to live up to the bargain, or didn't expect her to give her life...no matter.

Betrayed and alone, Snape went to Dumbledore and confessed the whole story. Dumbledore was all about the power of love, so I think that this is why he trusted Snape so. His confessed love for Lily driving him to lonely desepration. Dumbledore would believe in anyone who bared their sould so completely.

I beleive that the Pensieve will tell the whole tale sooner or later.

The other cool thing about Snape is his ability to see theforest for trees and despite his dislike for Harry, continue to aid the good side no matter how hard.

The other thing to keep in mind is that we see everything through a lens of Harry's perception. He hates Snape nad therefore every time he is described, it is likely the characterization of Snapes deeds is tilted towards the unseemly!

Free Severus!

Very plausible theory. I have one particular twist to add to it. We know that Snape is who went to LV with the prophecy. We know that Snape came clean to DD that he was a death eater and got him to testify that he was a double agent. There is seemingly a lost time lapse b/w the events of the prophecy being overheard by Snape, Snape going 007 and LV getting ghosted. Snape had to have been with the Order prior to LV's downfall, as you can't really be a double agent when your boss is vapor. Now under that assumption, I throw out my "grade-A phooey" theory.

Snape made an unbreakable vow to Dumbledore that he would protect Harry. It is my belief that Snape felt so guilty that he caused Lily's death that he would give his life to protect her son.

...now you can all raise the cross and nail me to it for such an outlandish proposition

[A Gunslinger]

No I had speculated the very same thing somewhere in these threads, Storm. The only detractor from that possibility that gave me pause is one of writing convention...how many times would JKR utilize the same device with the same character no less? That and would Dumbledore endorse the use of such? After considering it further...It seems to me that a man's word would be good enough for D.

[storm]

No I had speculated the very same thing somewhere in these threads, Storm. The only detractor from that possibility that gave me pause is one of writing convention...how many times would JKR utilize the same device with the same character no less? That and would Dumbledore endorse the use of such? After considering it further...It seems to me that a man's word would be good enough for D.

With the way that Jo writes you may be correct. I believe there has to be something so compelling for DD to trust Snape that it has to be beyond anyone's questioning. By book 6, DD trusts Harry as a friend, the cave proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. DD was a powerful legilimens, so it may be right that Snape told him he loved Lily and there was no need for DD to bind Snape because he could see into his heart.

I just wonder about the "believability" of that concept in the last book for the other characters. Would Lupin ever believe that Snape was beyond reproach on account of his word? The interaction of the characters is vital to this story...Harry is the hero because of his heart, he may fight LV alone in the end, but getting there requires the interaction of the characters. Snape will play a big part in this if Jo stays true to her style.

It is a shadowy mist of speculation. There are certain aspects of this story, like the one we are discussing, in which Jo has painted herself into a corner. She writes in so many layers that if the story behind Snape is "flat"...we'll be very disappointed.

[A Gunslinger]

That is true. If it turns out Snape is just a creep and Dumbledore was just flat out wrong, it will be a major disappointment.

comin' around Camm Jenn?

[sindatur]

I too support that Snape took an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry. And I don't think it's repetitive. Showing us the unbreakable vow he took for Draco was Foreshadowing (Well, backshadowing, actually, I guess) for the reveal that he took the Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry.

Like JMS said about his approach to writing Babylon 5, if you use a gun in the 3rd or 4th act, you have to see it hanging on the wall in the first act (paraphrased)

[storm]

That is true. If it turns out Snape is just a creep and Dumbledore was just flat out wrong, it will be a major disappointment.

comin' around Camm Jenn?

She would lose a lot of credibility as a good author if she pulled something like that as far as I'm concerned.

Not to mention it would ruin hours of reading through the books trying to find clues to support my "Snape is a good guy" theory...lol

[storm]

I too support that Snape took an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry. And I don't think it's repetitive. Showing us the unbreakable vow he took for Draco was Foreshadowing (Well, backshadowing, actually, I guess) for the reveal that he took the Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry.

Like JMS said about his approach to writing Babylon 5, if you use a gun in the 3rd or 4th act, you have to see it hanging on the wall in the first act (paraphrased)

That's a great point, springing an unbreakable vow in the last book would leave us scratching our heads (or crotch). I think there has to be something else in book 7 about a vow, because the way that it was used in book 6 seems so "matter of fact"...i'm just rambling now, i apologize.

[Cameraman Jenn]

Guns, Storm, anyone else on the Snape loves Lily bandwagon. Let me get this straight. You guys think that Snape is on the good side and yet he willingly and eagerly plotted to have his rival, James, and James's infant son murdered so he could then try to seduce Lily and when the plan backfired he went crying to Dumbledore, admitted this and Dumbledore was like, "Hey dude, it's alright, no biggie, why don't you come back to our side and that will make up for everything, despite your heinous betrayal, I trust you man, it's cool." Oh, wait, was it the only known interaction between them that inspired this theory, the one where he looks down his nose and sneers at her and calls her a mudblood and she responds with anger and calls him snivelus and tells him to change his underpants? That sounds like love to me!

[A Gunslinger]

Guns, Storm, anyone else on the Snape loves Lily bandwagon. Let me get this straight. You guys think that Snape is on the good side and yet he willingly and eagerly plotted to have his rival, James, and James's infant son murdered so he could then try to seduce Lily and when the plan backfired he went crying to Dumbledore, admitted this and Dumbledore was like, "Hey dude, it's alright, no biggie, why don't you come back to our side and that will make up for everything, despite your heinous betrayal, I trust you man, it's cool." Oh, wait, was it the only known interaction between them that inspired this theory, the one where he looks down his nose and sneers at her and calls her a mudblood and she responds with anger and calls him snivelus and tells him to change his underpants? That sounds like love to me!

www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/graphicnov ... ell_5.html

Sounds JUST like LOVE!!!

[Cameraman Jenn]

Guns, convince me, come on, do it. Give me the hard sell.

[A Gunslinger]

Again, the theory is that Snape loved Lily, not that she necessarily loved him in return. For him to call her names, even terrible ones, does nothing ot disuade me. In high school, in order to protect yourself, would you not say stupid, contradictory things to reserve your mirror image self?

His love of Lily is the only thing that could explain WHY DD trusts snape so much. Offering regret would not be enough. Recall that on numerous occassions, DD speaks of hi implicit trust of Snape. WHY? Becuase he sniffled a couple of times? Not likely.

Also why does Snape hate LV and work for the order in the 1st place? Theres a million dollar question. Why work for them at all ..why not reveal their location...why not kill Potter at any time between his resurfacing and now? No. Snape despises LV and the reason he does is because LV killed Lily.

There.

[Cameraman Jenn]

I'm still not entirely convinced Snape IS on the side of good. But for arguments sake, let's assume he is. Do you think that Snape loving Lily and plotting her husband and infant son's deaths is something that makes Snape redeemable? Remorse over Lily being killed makes someone who would willfully be compliant in the murders of two others just so he could have a crack at her is cool?

[A Gunslinger]

I'm still not entirely convinced Snape IS on the side of good. But for arguments sake, let's assume he is. Do you think that Snape loving Lily and plotting her husband and infant son's deaths is something that makes Snape redeemable? Remorse over Lily being killed makes someone who would willfully be compliant in the murders of two others just so he could have a crack at her is cool?

Perhaps not, but bringing about the final death of LV might redeem him, might it not? I think that Snapes own misery over Lily's death woke him up to the value of life and love...which made his possible redemption possible in the eyes of DD.

Why else would DD be so trusting? He is no fool. He would always vociferously defend snape. Would a simple "sorry" make that happen?

[Cameraman Jenn]

Your logic is faultless but I just am still not buying it. It almost seems too twisted of a scenario. Snape's actions and motivations seem to sick and selfish to allow for redemption if this is indeed the case. I think all you guys are just picking up on the fact that pretty much every man who encountered Lily Evans had a secret crush on her.

[storm]

Your logic is faultless but I just am still not buying it. It almost seems too twisted of a scenario. Snape's actions and motivations seem to sick and selfish to allow for redemption if this is indeed the case. I think all you guys are just picking up on the fact that pretty much every man who encountered Lily Evans had a secret crush on her.

You have made many valid counter arguments...but a few assumptions in there that aren't necessarily fact.

First, Snape did not plan the demise of James and Harry. When cat lady was interviewing for the job of Divination teacher, Snape heard parts of the prophecy...the bit about the one with power to defeat the dark lord born as the 7th month dies.

Second, in GOF, during the interrogation of Karkaroff in the pensieve, he names Snape as a death eater, to which Dumbledore says "Severus Snape was in fact a death eater, but prior to the downfall of the dark lord turned spy for us at great personal risk" (not exact quote, but pretty damn close from memory). So, we have DD's word that Snape was working for the Order before the demise of LV and the death of the Potter's...there is no way that while Snape is playing secret agent man that he's actively trying to screw over James and help LV kill his kid; DD would know and probably hand Snape over to the Dementors.

So...what do we in fact know...Snape gave the prophecy info to LV, he turned spy for the Order. No other proof of Snape's innocence or guilt until we get to book 6 and he KO's DD.

There has to be something that turned Snape into a Spy. Just before LV's encounter with Harry, he was at the very height of his power. What motivating factor could have prompted Snape (who serves his own best interests) to start working with the OOTP when they were getting picked off like ducks and it was only a matter of time before DD was the only one of them left. I believe that factor was Lily Potter. I can't prove it and I can only point to that which has already been stated about them, but what else other than love can make one give up everything and help out a side that is almost assuredly going to be defeated. Also, as Guns mentions, what could Snape tell Dumbledore, short of an unbreakable vow, that will make him believe that his loyalty to DD and the order is beyond question.