Did Kevin do the right thing with the ROD?

[KaosArcana]

Syl:

He could've evacuated the Land, fortified Revelstone, etc., but if you ask me, Kevin was too damned proud to accept anything other than a perfect solution.

Evacuated the Land to where? And do you think Foul would just sit
by and idly let the people flee? He would have cut them to pieces.

I'm not really sure how any structure-- including Revelstone--
could stand against the power that Foul could unleash against it
if he had total power in the Land.

Furl's Fire:

I see what your saying. But, the lack of the Oath of Peace isn't what prevented Kevin from seeing the other side of the blade. And I don't think I misinterpreted the realization that Mhoram came too. The title of the chapter is: The Ritual of Desecration. What other meaning could I have come to conclude? And I know he didn't face Foul with his new knowledge of the power. But, you know what, I think if he had, he could have brought Foul down. He brought the raver down with it. And yes, I know the raver isn't Foul. But Mhoram was strong and he was smart, and he wasn't despairing.

All the power of the ROD wasn't enough to destroy Foul. There is nothing
that Mhoram could have done to take down Foul himself, IMO. An
Illearth Stone-armed Foul would have ripped the soul from Mhoram's
body in about two seconds flat. The very Law that Mhoram served
protected Foul from defeat by anything less than the wild magic.



Fist and Faith:

The difference between the two is not that Mhoram found a different solution. He found the same solution. He used his power the same way we know Kevin eventually used it. To a lesser degree, since he fought a lesser foe, but still the same strategy. The difference is that, living with the Oath of Peace as the focus of their lives not only made it almost impossible to see that the extreme power brought about through despair could also be brought about through love, but it also meant that Mhoram NEVER would have taken that final step that Kevin took. Mhoram would have let Foul win rather than Desecrate. After all, he was willing to risk Foul's victory for the sake of a little girl about to be bit by a snake. He didn't believe in such sacrifices. He believed that other means would be found - either to stop Foul's ultimate victory, or eventually remove him from power. Kevin was not willing to take the chance.

Well, seeing as how Covenant didn't arrive until a thousand years
after Kevin's time, I'd say that Kevin was right not to take the
chance.


So those of you who think the ROD was the wrong thing for Kevin to
do ... do you think the Land would have been better served to have
been given over to Lord Foul? If that was your choice-- the ROD or
Foul winning ... and not knowing Foul would survive the ROD, would
you have let the Land fall to the hands of Lord Foul?

[Seafoam Understone]

Evacuated the Land to where? And do you think Foul would just sit by and idly let the people flee? He would have cut them to pieces.

As a matter of fact...

To Lena's puzzlement, he said, "How long ago was this Desolation?"
"I do not know," she replied soberly. "But the people of the South Plains came back across the mountains from the bare Wastes twelve generations past. And it is said that they were forewarned by High Lord Kevin -- they escaped, and lived in exile in the wilderness by nail and tooth and rhadhamaerl lore for five hundred years.

So basically Foul either ignored those people or didn't know about them.

As for the rest... I'll leave it up to better quote-masters than I... there was something written about Revelstone quoted by a Giant or a Lord in explaining the might of the Giant-wraught <sic> home of the Lords.

[[Syl]]

I think the author's intent speaks for itself. On one hand, you have destiny. It had to happen in order for things to be the way they were when Covenant came to the Land. However, that doesn't make it right. You can romanticize Kevin and make him out to be a martyr (I'm fairly certain that's just what he imagined as he set out), but almost nobody, not even the man himself, condones his choices. I don't know how you guys can go through all six books and say "the end justifies the means." There is always an answer to despair other than capitulating to it.

Yes, Kevin's forces were overwhelmed, but as the 2nd Chrons teach us, there are ways to victory other than force (still, how much more time could Kevin have bought... more, the Giants and the Haruchai). Kevin, the spoiled brat that he was, had to play by his rules or not at all. He took his ball and went home. Yes, in many, many ways Kevin was a great man, a lord among Lords, but in this he failed. Sorry, he took the easy way out.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't know how you guys can go through all six books and say "the end justifies the means."

Are you referring to me?? The last thing I said above was that I wouldn't have the heart to do it, and I think it's wrong anyway! Let's not give me character flaws that I don't actually have on top of the too-many that I do, okay? I'm arguing that Mhoram did not do anything fundamentally different than Kevin did; that his genius was in seeing and accepting that huge power could be unlocked by what we consider good emotions, which we have no reason to think Kevin did not also know; and that he was superior to Kevin because he does not think the end justifies the means.

[aTOMiC]

HLK just screwed up. Nuff said.

[Landwaster]

HLK just screwed up. Nuff said.

Geeze how many times do I have to say; "I'm sorry"?

[KaosArcana]

Syl:

I think the author's intent speaks for itself. On one hand, you have destiny. It had to happen in order for things to be the way they were when Covenant came to the Land. However, that doesn't make it right. You can romanticize Kevin and make him out to be a martyr (I'm fairly certain that's just what he imagined as he set out), but almost nobody, not even the man himself, condones his choices. I don't know how you guys can go through all six books and say "the end justifies the means." There is always an answer to despair other than capitulating to it.

Sometimes there are only bad choices.

Atirian sacrificed bringing her daughter's rapist to justice to
help preserve the Land.

Foamfollower chose to preserve himself rather than face his
people's destruction to be there for Covenant when he was
needed.

Hile Troy faced the choice of the destruction of his army-- and the
Land-- or making an unknown bargain with Caerroil Wildwood.


Mhoram had to choose between forcing Covenant to come to the
Land or allowing Covenant to save the life of a child ... and he
chose the child. But the reason that choice didn't lead to the Land's
destruction was something he had no way of knowing ... that
Triok and Foamfollower would be able to summon Covenant to
the Land.

And when Covenant chose to withhold the killing blow against
Foul in TPTP, he sacrificed the Land's future to the Despiser.


Covenant refused to destroy the Clave when he had a chance because
he didn't want to face them when he still hated them and he believed
the Quest for the Staff of Law was the way to restore the Land.

The people of the Land paid the price for his actions with near
extinction.

Caer-Caveral gave Andelain over to the Sunbane because only by the
death of the last Forestal could he give Covenant a fighting chance
to oppose Lord Foul.

Covenant gave up his life to be able to oppose Foul without destroying
the Arch.

Seems to me a theme of The Chronicles is that there are times when
no matter what you do, the outcome is going to be horrific.

Yes, Kevin's forces were overwhelmed, but as the 2nd Chrons teach us, there are ways to victory other than force (still, how much more time could Kevin have bought... more, the Giants and the Haruchai). Kevin, the spoiled brat that he was, had to play by his rules or not at all. He took his ball and went home. Yes, in many, many ways Kevin was a great man, a lord among Lords, but in this he failed. Sorry, he took the easy way out

And look at the cost to the Land's people of Covenant's strategy. He
tried to avoid staining his hands with innocent blood, and he wound up
killing hundreds of the Brathrair, Cable Seadreamer died, and the
Clave slaughtered the people of the Land. The Law of Life was
broken with implications that no one can yet conceive of.


Yet, if he had stayed he might have broken the Arch in opposing the
Clave and Foul there would not have been a new Staff of Law to heal
the Sunbane.

Covenant didn't have a simple choice. No matter what he did, people
would die.

And neither did Kevin.

[Furls Fire]

HLK just screwed up. Nuff said.

Geeze how many times do I have to say; "I'm sorry"?

A little more feeling would be nice, and maybe some groveling too. You know, down on your knees, begging us for forgiveness??

Whew! This is starting to make my head spin . Okay, Fist, what makes me think that Mhoram found something other than Kevin knew in the power of the RoD is what he did when Trell was destroying the Close. For Trell, also, discovered the secret of the RoD. However, Mhoram used the power to prevent Trell from bringing Revelstone down. Trell was lost in despair, feeling that the Despiser had already won. Forsaking his Oath of Peace, he set about destroying the stone, Revelstone, which he loved. Mhoram used HIS Oath to raise the power and stop Trell. He walked into the fiery inferno of the Close, that power sustaining him and he stopped Trell. THAT is the power I'm talking about. Awesome power, and it was used to preserve.

Also, I believe Mhoram could have stood up to Foul, with the help of the other Lords after sharing the secret of the RoD with them. That power combined with their Oath of Peace was strong. But, remember, Foul couldn't be killed. He wasn't even alive. He was and is a malovolent entity. You can't kill Despite, as Covenant so clearly stated. Even with the RoD Kevin didn't kill him. We will never know, of course. Because the wild magic and Covenant brought him down. But, I don't believe that Foul would have "ripped out Mhoram's soul". He wasn't weak, and the power of the RoD was strong, and Mhoram had found a way to use that power with his Oath.

I still feel that Kevin could have found a way, using that power, to bring down Foul, reduce him, without destroying the Land. It was his despair that led him to desecrate everything. Grand suicide.

It needed to be done for the story's sake tho Sure is fun to speculate and debate a little bit. I love this stuff.

[Forestal]

personally, i think that kevin had a choice with the RoD...

he had the unforseen cercumstances of the earthblood, and he had the very foreseen destrutcion of everythign in the land for thousands of years...

now if i'd been kevin, i'd have given the earthblood a shot...

lets have a think... "i command the earth to stand up and fight against foul..."

thats a pretty good command for 2 minutes thought...

or "i command the earth to swallow foul's army"

there another one that would have helped...

[Lord Mhoram]

Okay, this is how I would answer this question:
I would think along these lines, if I were Kevin, and I wanted an alternative for the Land to a "Lord Foul Victory", and I possesed a huge amount of my own Lore, and that of my forefathers, what would I have done? It is extremely difficult to say.
In addition, we need to know how Kevin felt about the Land. His loyalties. I'm not doubting that he loved the Land, but how much?
Now, saying whether it is right or wrong is nearly impossible. By what standards? Did Kevin not allow the Land to fight another day, in the long run? Yes, he did. Did he know this was going to happen? Probably. BUT, he also knew he was killing many people, destroying many things. But, I'd say the Land turned out alright, no?
I know Kevin was devestated that he had to do this. But he knew he had to. And he knew that he'd be forever named "Landwaster" or something along these lines- yet he knew he was saving the Land, saving it so they could continue the fight against The Despiser. For this, I have the utmost respect for Lord Kevin.

[KaosArcana]

Forestal:

now if i'd been kevin, i'd have given the earthblood a shot...

lets have a think... "i command the earth to stand up and fight against foul..."

thats a pretty good command for 2 minutes thought...

or "i command the earth to swallow foul's army"

there another one that would have helped...

You know one that I thought of last night was: "I command the
Illearth Stone to battle Lord Foul."

Don't know for sure what would happen ... the battle between Foul
and the Stone might have destroyed the Land ... but maybe it would
have kept Foul too busy to attack anymore.

[Forestal]

i dont think u can command the illearth stone... as it is "illearth" and all...

theres a whole thread about this somewhere... dunno where but it is there...

btw, why could u only drink the earthblood once? would it kill u if u drank it again?

(knowing my luck it probably would)

[Lord Mhoram]

No, it would probably be like the WG, unable to be commanded by the Earthblood.

[duchess of malfi]

At that point in time, did anyone other than Foul even know that the Illearth Stone existed? They knew about "banes", but did they know anythign specific about the banes? What they were? Their names and locations?
And how many banes are there? Does it ever say anywhere? Wonder if there are seven of them, to correspond with the seven Words and seven Wards?

[Forestal]

i'm sure they knew that the stone existed, but i dont think they knew any more than that...

and i dont think it ever says how many banes there were.

[Fist and Faith]

OK, Fire, that's definitely a point worth considering. No, Mhoram didn't use that kind of thinking for his ultimate solution. But, though we don't know that Kevin didn't do similar things, we certainly don't know that he did. I think it comes down to what we discussed once on another thread: Exactly how were those who took the Oath of Peace different from the Old Lords? I'll see if I can find that thread. But NOW I understand where you're coming from!

And, btw, how freakin' cool is the battle between Trell and Tohrm?!

Confronting each other, standing almost face to face, the two Gravelingases wove their lore-secret gestures, sang their potent rhadhamaerl invocations. While the fire raged as if Revelstone were about to crash down upon them, they commanded the blaze, wrestled will against will for mastery of it.

Tohrm was exalted by Mhoram's support. With the High Lord's power resonating in every word and note and gesture, renewing him, fulfilling his love for stone, he bent back the desecration. After a last convulsive exertion, Trell fell to his knees, and his fire began to fail.

*WHEW* That's awesome!! It reminds me of Felagund vs Sauron. And, though they aren't examples of foe fighting foe, it also brings to mind two other situations.

1) Sunder and Hollian altering the Sunbane:

The Stonedowners chanted desperately, driving their exertion higher; but their voices made no sound. The incandescent beam absorbed their invocations directly into itself. Soundless force screamed across Linden's hearing.

2) When Kevin and Foul "uttered the Ritual of Desecration." I sure hope we get to see that!

[[Syl]]

Fist, I wasn't talking about anybody in particular, only those who say "Kevin did the right thing," that being the topic question.

There are a million what ifs, maybe, coulda beens, especially since we don't know %90 of the facts at hand. There are two facts throughout the series that become rather evident, though. Nothing worthwhile is easy, and giving in to despair is defeat.

Imagine if this was a different story, The Chronicles of Kevin, and it was just about Kevin's struggles. Let's say Kevin did his best to resist Foul without performing the RoD. Does anyone doubt that Donaldson would have found a way for Kevin to be victorious? Yes, it would have been horrible and painful, it might still have even cost him his life, but in the end he could've had the same victory as Covenant.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Ryzel]

Ah, an old topic returns and we get some new people involved in discussing it. I like that.

Anyway at some point I did some posts where I postulated that the RoD could have been a part of some master plan that Kevin had formulated to buy enough time to get TC to the Land or possibly for someone else to come up with a better solution. Additionally he might have a chance at killing Lord Foul, it must have seemed like a good idea at the time.

We know for a fact that this is not what happened:

His purpose is the work of Despite. As I have done before him he seeks to destroy that which he loves.

and

When evil rises in full power, is surpasses truth and can wear the guise of good without fear of discovery. In that way was I brought to my own doom.

So there is IMO no doubt as to the fact that High Lord Kevin was motivated by despair when he decided to enact the ritual.

BUT this does not necessarily mean that his choices were bad for the Land itself. The RoD did buy the time for TC to appear and the Land did heal after the Ritual of Desecration. We know what kind of damage Lord Foul can do to the Land if left unchecked (Read The Wounded Land if you do not know.) So in the long run Lord Kevin's sacrifice might be what enabled the salvation of the Land, even though Lord Kevin himself never intended or foresaw this.

There has been some discussion about Mhoram and the Oath of Peace too, and I have to say that the discussion so far seems to focus on the assumption that the power to resist despair will enable someone to destroy Lord Foul and his armies. Now I know that Saltheart Foamfollower did that, but even that DID NOT KILL FOUL. (Again: read TWL.) This is my counterargument to that theory. I.e. Mhoram might be stronger than Kevin, if not as lore-wise, but he could not have destroyed Lord Foul with what he knew and neither could Kevin.
Remember that not even TC could destroy Foul.

Last but not least, another possible theory: If it was not Kevin's plan to buy time for TC to appear, might it have been Lord Foul's plan to set the stage for his coming along in a few thousand years? Remember that Foul's long term plan was not to destroy the Land, it was to escape the world. He needed white gold for that, and for it to be valid TC had to give it to him. So he had to set the stage in which the Land was healthy and the Lords seemingly potent but actually not so that he could crush TC with despair when he appeared.

[Taiga Tzu]

Did Kevin do the right thing???
Are you people serious??? I'll tell you what Kevin should have done - what we told him to do when he warned us of his plan. Get out of the Land!! The Ravers were not a problem after the Colossus of the Fall was created. It was humans that destroyed the One Forest, weakening the Colossus; humans that brought the Despiser into the Land; humans that kept Foul there. Humans in the Land was the problem!

Kevin told many of the humans to go. He told the Giants to go to sea. He told the Haruchai to go into the mountains. He should have told everybody else to go, and then followed them! The Ritual of Desecration did almost as much damage to the Forests as everything that had come before combined! Before it, the Colossus, with our help, was still strong enough. If he had NOT invoked it, and left, Foul would have left, and the Colossus and we would have returned the Land and the One Forest to its glory!

Did Kevin do the right thing!!

Make me so mad!

[Forestal]

!!!!