The Kemper Revisited...

[Hellfire]

Maybe the croyel themselves are unfettered. Starting out with the ability to read minds and then growing more powerful and greedy under the sunbane and able suck the life out of beings by melding with them and sustaining them like a parasite. Kasryn could have been on of the last lords or even some part of the Clave and the croyel fed on his original power and expanded it.
Just a guess.

They probably are seperate evils from Lord Foul. The merewives and the dole wind were as well.

[Lord Mhoram]

But why are Kasreyn and Lord Foul totally unconnected? I think they theoretically could be. *shrug*

[I'm Murrin]

Foul originally came from the South and West, with the humans, into the Land, and since then Foul has remained in the Land - Kasreyn is far to the East, across the sea, so it is fair to assume they are unconnected. Kasreyn is simply a man who craved power, and found it through the Croyel

[Lord Mhoram]

Or perhaps the other way around...

[danlo]

If u look really closesly in the books Kasreyn was said 2 have come from the west across the sea. I think the croyel was more connected 2 Foul than we think--cauz how did the Kemper kno and expect LA and TC, how did he kno so much about the white gold? Yes he listened 2 alot of hearsay through his "ears" in Brathiarian...but he "knew" just a little bit more than what was being said after Starfare's Gem reached port. I find that curious.

I have no prob w/the croyel being a "handcuff" placed on the Kemper by LF---an Unfettered is possible, tho as far as "honor" is concerned I'd like 2 think they would die b4 "succumbing" 2 the Sunbane. (But even Giants were susceptable 2 the IE Stone, so anything's possible)

[Lord Mhoram]

I agree, Danlo. Your points about him knowing about TC and LA are good ones.

[danlo]

Since Damelon is a bit late in piloting us into Bhrathairain Harbor in Dissecting the Land, I thought it was time to revive this topic as we begin to approach The Sandhold, The Great Desert and Sandgorgon's Doom!

[danlo]

bump for current interest (please pardon my old 'comp-speak')

[A Gunslinger]

bump for current interest (please pardon my old 'comp-speak')

Thanks Buddy. i am going to have to condier the implications here.

[Nerdanel]

I think the implication was that Kasreyn WAS intending to expand. I got the idea that he was building his Hustin armies bigger than he needed to for defense because he was planning for conquest. At the point the story happened he had spent centuries growing Brathairealm from humble, Sandgorgon-trampled beginnings and hadn't yet become quite strong enough to take on all of his neighbors decisively enough. If he had gotten the white gold, I think he would have attacked someone nearly immediately. Eventually, the expansion of his empire would have led him against Lord Foul and almost certainly Lord Foul would have figured out some way to turn tables on a complacent Kasreyn.

By the way, I wonder if Kasreyn and Kastenessen have something in common besides names that start with Kas-. I think Kasreyn might be Kastenessen's son who had been taught magic by his father and who detested not having been born immortal.

[danlo]

That's always been in the back of my mind, for some reason...interesting!

[ur-monkey]

I'd like to see what happened when Kasreyn's army came up against the Haruchai...

[wayfriend]

I figured the only reason he bothered with Brathairealm was to get his hands on the gold and the white gold. He wasn't looking beyond the problem of his mortality.

*shrug*

[matrixman]

Bah, Wayfriend, you're spoiling our fanciful fun here...

I think a hustin army by itself with no intervention form Kasreyn would have its collective butt kicked by a force of Haruchai - even if the hustin had the advantage of sheer numbers. The much more agile Haruchai warriors would have little trouble humiliating the big lumbering hustin. So Kasreyn would need to use his magic in some manner to help his army subdue the Haruchai.

Wonderful speculation as always, Nerdanel. Yes, I can see Kasreyn amassing enough hustin for an invasion - and of course, he also would have had the enslaved Sandgorgons as the ace in his pocket. They would be kind of like tactical nuclear weapons, waiting to be unleashed upon his enemies if they dared oppose him.

[Dirty Whirl]

I'm more interested in the powers of gold than the Kasreyn. I assume it wields wild magic in a way that is limited by some sort of law- maybe its own law. Like, could he have created white fire if he wanted to, but it would have some draw back, like it would have burnt him? I guess we will never know.

As gold is used in the books only through circles, it seems quite different from white gold magic. But its interesting that when you read the final battle in the first chrons between TC and LF, white gold is described for of similarly. When TC triggers wild magic, it is articulated like a whirlwind, which seems a bit like the perfect circles that normal gold is articulated through. My speculation anyhow.

[Relayer]

Very cool thread. I'd never seen it before... and it opened up some new thoughts for me. (hope this makes sense

I've always wondered at the "coincidence" that drove Starfare's Gem to Bhrathairealm. Why there? Why to a place that apparently has the only other person in the world who knows about white gold? Clearly the Giants know of other harbors; but Bhrathairealm is the closest. The other such coincidences (showing up at Hollian's village just at the right moment; meeting the Search in the middle of the Sarangrave, etc) clearly affect what comes later. And as we know, everything in an SRD story has a purpose; there are no "random" events, especially ones that occupy multiple chapters. So why is this whole section necessary? What happens that is essential to the later story? (btw, I loved this whole part; this is in no way dissing it).

Linden could've pulled TC out of his stasis anywhere. The Haruchai already distrusted her, they didn't need the events w/ Ceer and Hergrom. The governing structure of Bhrathairealm was altered, but this doesn't appear to matter to the larger story. We learned about croyel; but why was that necessary? They could've possessed the arguleh anyway; or the arguleh could've just been written as a more organized danger to begin with. Why did we need to know about them or the croyel? As things stood at the end of WGW, nothing that happens at Bhrathair was really necessary... except Nom's involvement.

I figured the only reason he bothered with Brathairealm was to get his hands on the gold and the white gold. He wasn't looking beyond the problem of his mortality.

Gold, yes. But white gold? How would he have known 1000 or more years earlier that white gold would come to Brathairealm?

So, all that to say, I really am doubting that SRD would've written that whole section just to introduce Nom. I suspect that Kasreyn might have created that storm, specifically to cripple Starfare's Gem, and to blow it to a position where the nearest port was Bhrathairealm. If so, how did he know there was white gold onboard in the first place? IIRC, he was not surprised when they came to the Sandhold. And if so, there may be much more going on w/ Kasreyn than we see by the end of WGW.

Spoiler

And indeed, the croyel might be more important than Kasreyn... both the travelling Elohim and Anele speak of them in Runes.

I think Kasreyn might be Kastenessen's son who had been taught magic by his father and who detested not having been born immortal.

Good catch!! That makes a lot of sense, and could explain how he knew white gold was within his reach. He did create the Doom; surely he could create a storm at sea?

Also, if the Kas's are related, does that make the merewives his "sisters" ?

Spoiler

and Esmer his nephew

Hmmm. The plot thickens.

[dlbpharmd]

If the Kemper was part Elohim, Findail would have said something about it.

[Peven]

great thread, plenty of interesting conjecture. one thing that keeps popping up that i am bothered by is the assumption that gold has the power of "wild magic". i don't remember any specific statement to that effect in the books, so i am wondering why people are making that assumption. just because gold has magical qualities why does that mean it is wild magic?

i have to say i always took it to be a different, more "mortal" type of magic, if you will, whereas wild magic was something that operated outside of the rules and boundaries of the world The Land occupied. that was what made the wild magic of white gold so powerful, so dangerous, because it broke the rules, and meanwhile gold was constrained by them. just my two cents off the top of my head.

[Peven]

also, i am REALLY hoping that Nom pops up in the final Chronicles.

[Warmark]

I'd like to see what happened when Kasreyn's army came up against the Haruchai...

Oh, there would be a lot of dead Hustin about.