Bannor and the Ramen

[Haruchai]

I didn't realise that such a simple, random post would generate such profound discussion!

I love this forum.

[Warmark]

One strange thing about that incident I just thought of... the way Brinn and Cail act about it, it's as if they are Bloodguard. "The longing for the whiteness of our women..." But they have not been unwived for 2000 years. How long were they held captive by the Clave? A few years at the most, probably much less? Then their wives are likely still alive and waiting for them... they could have returned at the end of the Quest. Were they therefore unfaithful? Or is there a Haruchai custom that when the men leave the homeland, they have already given up their wives? (these are surely very lusty women too )

Ya know... That's an excellent point! They acted like Bloodguard. And we fell right in step with them, thinking of them as the long-deprived Bloodguard. Now that you point it out, I would expect them to have more willpower than they showed! *hrm*

Well a couple of years is still a long time, and without the Vow to sustain them, i cant imagine Brinn and cail getting a bit ''lusty''.

[Fist and Faith]

Well a couple of years is still a long time, and without the Vow to sustain them, i can imagine Brinn and cail getting a bit ''lusty''.

No argument. But I will argue that a couple years without a booty call is not sufficient time to have eroded the Haruchai will - a thing that, at nearly all other times, is as good as its legendary reputation.

[Cail]

Maybe they just wanted a little strange?

I think that the quoted passage speaks volumes about how the Vow was corrupted over those 2000 years.

[Peven]

i agree with Dark Overlord. Bannor complimented the rope's effectiveness in the hands of the Ramen, but then showed by snapping it with a mere flex of his muscles that he felt it still inferior to the way of the Haruchai.

[Cail]

Interesting way of looking at it. I felt it foreshadowed Bannor's use of the White Gold at the end, and how these people who had no use for either weapons or lore were not as pure as they would seem.

[The Dark Overlord]

Relayer and then Fist and Faith made a very good point- I did just step in line of thinking about them like the long deprived bloodgaurd(mabey SDR did too- I know, that's blasphemy) but I think the merewives must have been intentionally targeting the haurachi. Oh they went after all ships passing buy but I think the especially went after the haurachi and poured it on(their power). Mabey they were able to sense the potential earthpower in them(like the lurker in sarangrave flat in the first Chronicle)

Spoiler

and knew something like Esmer would be the result if they succeeded in seducing/compromising them. And they achieved their ends- Esmer(a real turd)

[Relayer]

Relayer and then Fist and Faith made a very good point- I did just step in line of thinking about them like the long deprived bloodgaurd(mabey SDR did too- I know, that's blasphemy) but I think the merewives must have been intentionally targeting the haurachi. Oh they went after all ships passing buy but I think the especially went after the haurachi and poured it on(their power). Mabey they were able to sense the potential earthpower in them...

You might want to spoiler that last part.

I never gave it a 2nd thought either until just the other day. Maybe SRD did just think of them like Bloodguard too.

And I agree with you, the merewives did target the Haruchai. They could've gone after the Giants, and I think they started to go after Covenant (?) but probably realized the Haruchai served their purposes better (whatever those would be...)

But that still doesn't answer why characters as mentally strong as Haruchai would succumb. These are men who chose to come to the Land to see what had happened to their kin. They already knew they wouldn't be back for a while, but it was only a few years. The only real reason seems to be that SRD needed a way to remove them from TC's service. Although in practice, not much changed. Perhaps it was more to emphasize their beliefs than it was the action.

[iQuestor]

Relayer and then Fist and Faith made a very good point- I did just step in line of thinking about them like the long deprived bloodgaurd(mabey SDR did too- I know, that's blasphemy) but I think the merewives must have been intentionally targeting the haurachi. Oh they went after all ships passing buy but I think the especially went after the haurachi and poured it on(their power). Mabey they were able to sense the potential earthpower in them...

You might want to spoiler that last part.

I never gave it a 2nd thought either until just the other day. Maybe SRD did just think of them like Bloodguard too.

And I agree with you, the merewives did target the Haruchai. They could've gone after the Giants, and I think they started to go after Covenant (?) but probably realized the Haruchai served their purposes better (whatever those would be...)

But that still doesn't answer why characters as mentally strong as Haruchai would succumb. These are men who chose to come to the Land to see what had happened to their kin. They already knew they wouldn't be back for a while, but it was only a few years. The only real reason seems to be that SRD needed a way to remove them from TC's service. Although in practice, not much changed. Perhaps it was more to emphasize their beliefs than it was the action.

you know, the Haruchai were a lusty bunch, and deprived by their vow. They had a base need to serve and suffice; I think the merewives responded to the depth and breadth of the Haruchai's true nature, and to the extremity of their commitment, and this is why they were singled out.

[wayfriend]

I consider the Haruchai's "failure" with the merewives to be an "achilles heel" sort of thing. It certainly doesn't fit otherwise - after resisting Kasreyn so well, it's astonishing to see them succomb to the merewives.

On the other hand, the Haruchai were equally susceptible to the Clave. Maybe the Clave and the merewives took advantage of the same weakness. (The application of Linden's "cure" would seem to point that out.)

On the other other hand, Brinn and Cail had both been captured by the Clave. I presume that the Clave had taken both of them over at some point. It may be that the Clave broke something that the merewives were able to capitalize on. But Donaldson probably would have worked that into the story somehow if that were so...

I wonder why their susceptibility to the Clave did not cause them to forfeit their service? Not in WGW, but when the Clave caught them in the first place.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, I'm obviously a fan of the Haruchai. They have some qualities that are amazingly noble, and pure, and good. However, in other ways, they're arrogant, and naive, and downright stupid. Maybe the merewives saw that right off, and zoomed in.

[NightBlaze]

Relayer and then Fist and Faith made a very good point- I did just step in line of thinking about them like the long deprived bloodgaurd(mabey SDR did too- I know, that's blasphemy) but I think the merewives must have been intentionally targeting the haurachi. Oh they went after all ships passing buy but I think the especially went after the haurachi and poured it on(their power). Mabey they were able to sense the potential earthpower in them(like the lurker in sarangrave flat in the first Chronicle)

Spoiler

and knew something like Esmer would be the result if they succeeded in seducing/compromising them. And they achieved their ends- Esmer(a real turd)

Remember, the Lurker wasnt aware of the Haruchai themselves, rather, thier vow was one that 'was witnessed and sealed with earthpower', thus thier vow itself was a thing of earthpower. That is what the Lurker was after, not the Haruchai themselves. I think the Haruchai simply chose to answer. Pitchwife had stated to Linden the Merewives had no interest in Giants or women.

[Peven]

i guess i always thought that the merewives were able to lure the Haruchai by tapping into the Haruchai's innate passion and hot-bloodedness.

[wayfriend]

... and (my impression only) I think the Haruchai were the first men that the merewives lured that were hearty enough to be useful for anything. They probably lured quite a few other men during their years, but all of them seemed to have a problem with drowning before completion (shall we say).

So I don't think the Haruchai were targetted. I think that it was a confluence of circumstances. The merewives finally found someone who was their match.

[iQuestor]

i guess i always thought that the merewives were able to lure the Haruchai by tapping into the Haruchai's innate passion and hot-bloodedness.

my thoughts exactly.

[Krilly]

It's possible the merewives and the Haruchai simply slammed together like two opposing magnetic forces...

Or perhaps a third party was involved making their siren song more potent to them (or causing the Haruchai to be more vulnerable).

[Mhorram's Revenge]

If I recall correctly, the Cail and Brinn were the only males not restrained - TC was fully affected, but was tied to a mast from memory. So I don't think they particularly targeted the Haruchai.

The Haruchai would be a long way from the first otherwise strong, competent, and totally focussed men to have been subverted by their lusty nature. I think it is an Achilles heal type of thing. If you recall, the main thing Bannor seemed to regret about the whole collapse of the Vow was that it was too long to have deprived themselves of their wives.

Re the original point about Bannor's tension when he snapped the rope, I think it was partly a desire to fight Corruption openly (as was mentioned in relation to the Grieve, it had always been the Bloodguards dream to directly confront LF). But I think it was mainly tension, of a non-lusty variety, between the Ramen and the Bloodguard. The Ramen resented and in some senses hated the Bloodguard for taking the Ranyhin into peril, while the Bloodguard were contemptuous to a degree of the Ramen presuming upon their service to claim some kind of protective stewardship over the Ranyhin (which the Bloodguard would have thought of as unnecessary and maybe demeaning to the great horses) combined with their contempt for anyone who finds it necessary to use weapons... I think the Bloodguard had a definite superiority complex regarding the purity of their service, and they probably found the Ramen's simpler devotion to the Ranyhin somewhat threatening in that regard - without Earthpowered Vows or the competence of the Haruchai, they sufficed and served for as long as the Bloodguard had...

Bannor probably felt that tension particularly because he did love the Ranyhin in much the same way as the Ramen, and ultimately when everything else deserted him he resolved that tension by trying to aid the Ramen...

[Relayer]

I think the Bloodguard had a definite superiority complex regarding the purity of their service, and they probably found the Ramen's simpler devotion to the Ranyhin somewhat threatening in that regard - without Earthpowered Vows or the competence of the Haruchai, they sufficed and served for as long as the Bloodguard had...

Great point!

Spoiler

And look at what that knowledge does when Linden confronts Stave with it. She convinces him to take part in the Horserite, which he saw no need for... and then, based on the message the Ranyhyn had for him, his whole understanding of Mastery changed.

[tomjunior]

Without a glance at Cord Grace, he left the hilltop to mount the Ranyhyn that had chosen him.

Anyone else notice the double ententre there? Talk about lusty.