The Second Ward

[Dawngreeter]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but I cannot find much reference to it when searching.

The Second Ward -

When the Questers are in the catacombs searching for the Staff of Law in LFB -

Terrel's voice held a note like urgency as he said, "Ur-viles approach-perhaps fifty. They have seen the light." Prothall groaned; Mhoram spat a curse. Manethrall Lithe drew a hissing breath, whipped her cord from her hair as if she were about to encounter the stuff of which Ramen nightmares were made. But before anyone could take action, old Birinair seemed to snap like a dry twig. Shouting, "Follow!" he spun to his right and raced away into the darkness.

Battle begins and Birinair charges to what he thinks is where a Ward is, bam! he gets stuck in a Word of Protection - slow cook mode. Battle continues and then an ur-vile breaks from the formation and tries to nab TC, but bites it due to an arrow between his shoulders courtesy of Quaan.

The Warhaft was carrying a small iron chest. When Mhoram reached the fire, he spoke in quiet wonder. "The power was a defense placed here by High Lord Kevin. Beyond this tunnel lies a chamber. There we found the Second Ward of Kevin's Lore the Second of the Seven." High Lord Prothall's face lit up with hope.

My question is, haven't the inhabitants of the catacombs already known where this Ward is considering that they live there? If they do know, do they have no power to get past the word and destroy it? Fifty ur-viles, not cavewights, intercepting the Questers seems to suggest a force of more consequence like they knew the Questers were closing in on the Ward & with TC's white-gold might actually get the it. Birinair's sudden "follow!" command suggests that too. It appears that the power scale of both the good and bad guys are at Second Ward level since the ur-viles cannot get past the Ward's protection.

[Warmark]

I'll have to check the books, but hadn't Birinair studied the maps of the Catacombs left in the First Ward?

Perhaps the urviles had no access to these maps and hence hadnty hcecked everywhere in Mount Thunder - Its got to be a pretty big, and confusing, place.

[Dawngreeter]

Yes Warmark -

"Why he ran here?" Mhoram spoke absently; all of him except his voice was focused on the scroll which Prothall held up like a mighty talisman. "Perhaps it is possible. He knew the old maps. No doubt they were given to us in the First Ward so that in time we might find our way here. It may be that his heart saw what our eyes did not."

It just seems crazy to me that the ur-viles didn't know where it was. If they did, they were powerless to get past the protection Word just as everyone probably was had it not been for white-gold. TC skipping Kevin's proper learning scale.

[Mhorram's Revenge]

Hmmm... Kevin can't have made the Word too hard to get past, otherwise the new Lords would not have been able to get to it if, as presumably Kevin hoped, they mastered the First Ward - not without wild magic anyway. From what you read about ur-viles they should have, with time, been able to dismantle anything that Kevin put in place, particularly if he did have to "dumb" it down for the new Lords to be able to get past it.

An alternative is that Kevin was able to design a barrier that would be much harder for ur-viles and Ravers and the like to take down than it would be for the Lords. Maybe the barrier can be tailored to resist the kinds of attacks ur-viles would mount? Again, it seems hard to think that creatures with lore as deep as ur-viles couldn't circumvent this with sufficient time.

Perhaps the answer is that the Word shields its own power and what's behind it from physical and "magical" sight, making it effectively invisible unless you know its there and perhaps perform the correct action. If this is right, maybe there was a cryptic clue in the 1st Ward or the old maps, and that led Birinair to the right place, and led him to perform the right actions, after which it trapped him and became visible to Mhoram and the others...

[Relayer]

I assumed that there was some knowledge in the First Ward - a series of words, incantations, magical staff-wielding, or something - that would have to be learned, at which point the 2nd Ward could be located and the barrier removed. Apparently it was like a Word of Warning, and you're right that it would have to be made to be invisible, or certainly ur-viles could have seen it.

If a certain spell was cast to create one, there would likely be an analogous way to remove it. It wasn't a matter of "dumbing it down" - more like "here's the password to get past this security." Birinair had probably seen that information in the First Ward but not really understood it. But it was enough that he intuitively recognized the location but didn't really know the "password."

Spoiler

There's a similar situation in Runes, where the Waynhim have created an illusion which is "similar to a Word" to hide the canyon and cave where they have been keeping the Staff. At first, it's essentially invisible to Linden, although apparently Stave, Mahrtiir, and Hrama can sense it. Esmer simply blows it away, but says that given time the ur-viles could've dismantled it. However, the nature of that power is somewhat different (for one thing, it's Wayhim lore instead of "human"). Also, the ur-viles had already been able to locate it, or the Staff, with their "power-serpent of vitriol." Nevertheless, the parallels are interesting.

[Dawngreeter]

OK folks, good stuff. It makes a little better sense to me now. I suspect now that the Word was invisible and miscellaneous catacomb denizens never made it to that cave passage to activate it. When Birinair charged on unknowingly into the Word, it was triggered and made visible.

Good spoiler Relayer - I bet that block was more like the Word that Prothall, TC & Mhoram created to block the ur-viles when they were trying the black a passage in the catacombs - but more powerful. More like this size when they were really leaving the catacombs -

"Then close this gap to delay them." Mhoram's voice became softer still. "The High Lord has no staff. I cannot forbid the gap alone-I have not the power.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

What if the ur-viles knew about it and simply didn't care? Ur-viles have their own lore, and seem to not have much use for that of others, especially that of the Lords. And if they did know about it, maybe they just ignored it as useless crud. It obviously did Kevin little good...

The way I have intrepreted the ur-viles, they always seemed driven by their breeding schedules and need for created perfection, not by lust for power. It was only the compulsion of the Staff in Drool's hands or the beckoning of Foul that caused them to fight for a 'cause.'

dw

[Herem]

That seems quite likely, dukkha. It becomes clearer in Runes that

Spoiler

anything related to Earthpower, presumably including the Law of the Old Lords, is antithetical to the Demondim-spawn. Witness the sickness of the Waynhim guarding the Staff of Law.

So maybe the ur-viles couldn't get near it because they were instinctively repulsed by the expression of the Law of the Old Lords?

[Dawngreeter]

That seems quite likely, dukkha. It becomes clearer in Runes that

Spoiler

anything related to Earthpower, presumably including the Law of the Old Lords, is antithetical to the Demondim-spawn. Witness the sickness of the Waynhim guarding the Staff of Law.

So maybe the ur-viles couldn't get near it because they were instinctively repulsed by the expression of the Law of the Old Lords?

I'm digging it. I think that's the answer. I knew it, it just didn't make sense to me that that the ur-viles didn't know / how / care / avoided the Second Ward. I wonder if this was a actually an SRD hole fixer followed up in Runes.

[matrixman]

I agree with DukkhaWaynhim, the ur-viles likely wouldn't have cared much about the 2nd Ward if they had known about, not even enough to bother destroying it. Why waste their time on something as apparently measely as the 2nd Ward, anyway? Now if it had been the 7th Ward - ok, that might have snagged the attention of the ur-viles. But that's all moot anyway, as Herem's answer makes sense, too - that the expression of Law made for instant Demondim-spawn repellant.

However, had the ur-viles known the contents of the 2nd Ward, I wonder if they would have been more encouraged to try to destroy it...since it was the 2nd Ward that pointed the new Lords to the location of the krill...the weapon created by Loric to fight the ur-viles' ancestors. Not that I'm saying the ur-viles would've held a millenial grudge against the Lords, but hey, I'm no ur-vile psychologist. Don't mind me, just rambling.

[Relayer]

I'm thinking the ur-viles might not have cared about the Wards for themselves, but probably would want to limit the potential abilities of their opponents. Even if the 2nd ward wasn't really powerful, it could lead the Lords to the next, and then the next, until they would actually be strong enough to defeat ur-viles.

But whether this is one of Foul's strategies is open to debate, since he was willing to sacrifice the Staff to them in order to get the Stone. He might be willing to let the Lords have Lore, because either a) it didn't help Kevin, why would it work now? or b) he wants them to have more power because it increases the likelihood that he can be freed. Or both.

[Nerdanel]

Kevin was very formidable in magic and probably designed the defense to have a way of unraveling one would get only from the First Ward and that was incompatible with the ur-vile type of magic. Therefore the ur-viles would have had to brute-force their way to the Second Ward, and since Kevin was so very powerful, they would have needed a particularly large wedge to do it. A wedge of the sufficient size might not fit in the tunnel, so they might have had to delve it larger it first... And if they made a slightest error in the dispelling, the leading loremaster would have ended up like Birinair... In addition, there may have been additional hiding enchantments at play. It's possible that the krill's aura radiated through the barrier and added to the keep-out factor.

I think the risk for an accident would have been quite significant, as (insignificant Runes spoiler)

Spoiler

the ur-viles have lost a good bit of what the Demondim used to know, and 1 Demondim roughly equals 1 Old Lord.

I think the barrier would have been non-trivial even for the Demondim, but in the case of the Demondim there wouldn't have been any reason to break in, as their enemies already knew everything in the Second Ward and more.

So I tend to think the ur-viles would have been able to dispel the barrier, but it would have been far too risky and likely to kill someone for no gain at all for their part. They would not have been able to use whatever was inside. The krill would have been directly contrary to their natures, If they knew of the Second Ward, they would not have had much use for it either, since it was incompatible with their magic and I think in Vain we have hints that the ur-viles in their eyelessness are unable to perceive any color information - more than just color blind, blind to brightness too - although they have other senses that allow them to avoid colliding with objects. I think they would be unable to read text encoded as black on white or even notice the presence of such text.

[Angoid]

I tend to fall down on the side that says had the ur-viles known how to get to the Second Ward, they would have destroyed it knowing that even if it wasn't massively powerful in and of itself, it would be a gateway through which the New Lords could increase their knowledge and finally get to the Seventh Ward.

I would say that the final revelation in the First Ward would have been a secret phrase of power (like a password) that would have taken that Word of Warning down and allowed access to the Second Ward - a phrase that would not have been known to the ur-viles.

The ur-viles' own lore may have been incompatible with Kevin's Lore.

It would have been entirely possible for Kevin to set up something like this, where the New Lords would have to utter something they don't necessarily understand, but is sufficient for the specific task in hand.

If you don't know what "Amok" is, please don't read this potential spoiler:

Spoiler

This could be a similar principle to what happened when the White Gold brought the krill to life - my guess would be that the final revelation of the Sixth Ward would have been how to do this, and earlier knowledge would have been on what questions to ask Amok to unveil how the Seventh Ward should be used.

[thranathiril]

It just flashed through my mind - I wonder if the later Wards (4th through 6th) will somehow play a part in the final Chronicles. We know that the Lords found the Third Ward - Covenant saw it in Revelstone when Vain recovers the heels of the Staff of Law.

Spoiler

With the ceasures making anything accessible to Linden in her struggle against Lord Foul, I wonder if we will see her using the Staff and white gold to go back and bag the later Wards. Either to go back find out from Kevin where he had stashed them, or somehow have Anele be able to find them through his inbuilt Earthpower. Or have the urviles helping Linden have some knowledge of the lost Wards.

This could explain why the Lords could not find them (although we already know that Mhoram 'turned away' from the uses of Earthpower set down in Kevin's Wards, so the latter Wards may not have been actively sought during his successors' lives).

Thranathiril
Thranathiril

[wayfriend]

I don't think the Wards are relevant any more. Even the new Lords of Mhoram's time gave them up.

From what I understand, Donaldson doesn't believe in undoing what's been done. (Which is sort of hard to reconcile with time travel!) We heal, we grow, we move on, we make new things. Given that philosophy, resurrecting the Old Lords, or recreating their equivalent, doesn't seem to be in the offing.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

But I wouldn't be surprised to see a fragment of the Illearth Stone show up. So, thinking along those lines, I don't see why a Ward couldn't be used as a distraction or added element, while we build up to the latest new plot device. You know, jumbling things together to keep it complicated?

dw

[High Lord Tolkien]

I don't think the Wards are relevant any more. Even the new Lords of Mhoram's time gave them up.

From what I understand, Donaldson doesn't believe in undoing what's been done. (Which is sort of hard to reconcile with time travel!) We heal, we grow, we move on, we make new things. Given that philosophy, resurrecting the Old Lords, or recreating their equivalent, doesn't seem to be in the offing.

Oh no......
I feel the tugging of a what-if tangent pulling me away......

I don't think it would be "undoing".
I think reviving the importance of the Wards would be a fitting thing.
It would make right so many things that we think of as failing.
Like, maybe Kevin saw the need for his Wards NOT for the New Lords but for the time at the END of the Chronicles.
For when Despite has been defeated and the knowledge contained in the Wards would heal the world for all time.

[Dawngreeter]

...since it was the 2nd Ward that pointed the new Lords to the location of the krill....

Did you mean the Staff of Law?

"But the Staff of Law opened doors deep in Revelstone -doors which had been closed since the Desecration. The Lords hoped that these chambers contained other Wards of Kevin's Lore-but no Wards were there. Yet among many things of forgotten use or little power this was found-this which we offer to you."

[Angoid]

Not convinced that the information in Wards 3-6 would contain information that would heal the world for all time, since Kevin had that knowledge so it would have healed the world for all time during his day.

Spoiler

But IIRC it was the Oath of Peace that prevented the new Lords from understanding Kevin's Lore, and they wanted to preserve it. That's why they abandoned Kevin's Lore ..... the Oath of Peace was put in place to prevent a repeat of the Desecration. Therefore, the Ritual of Desecration must have been contained within those other wards

I'm currently re-reading all the works from the 1st Chronicles, and am currently halfway through TIW, but I remember enough for none of this to spoil it for me. In fact, it can be more interesting when you know as you can pick up on detail you missed before.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Not convinced that the information in Wards 3-6 would contain information that would heal the world for all time, since Kevin had that knowledge so it would have healed the world for all time during his day.

You missed the part where I said there was no more Despite.
Kevin's time was the golden age of Earthpower.
If there was no Despiser it never would have ended.

Spoiler

But IIRC it was the Oath of Peace that prevented the new Lords from understanding Kevin's Lore, and they wanted to preserve it. That's why they abandoned Kevin's Lore ..... the Oath of Peace was put in place to prevent a repeat of the Desecration. Therefore, the Ritual of Desecration must have been contained within those other wards

That's not what Amok said.
And Trell proved him right.

I'm currently re-reading all the works from the 1st Chronicles, and am currently halfway through TIW, but I remember enough for none of this to spoil it for me. In fact, it can be more interesting when you know as you can pick up on detail you missed before.

Which is why I love the Watch so much!