I haven't read this ENTIRE thread yet, but my take on the Creator and Lord Foul is a bit different I think. The Creator isn't necessarily good and Foul isn't necessarily evil to me. After all, a few of the actions of the Creator could be construed as evil acts. Good and evil are how people perceive things. To me the Creator represented Creation and Foul represented Chaos or Destruction. Many of the things in the series are definitely defined as evil through their description... the banes, the illearth stone, etc. But in the end, most of them were objects of either Creation (or maintaining of creation) or Destruction... and both could be put to good or evil purposes.
Even the Lords, by later refusing to risk themselves to the depradations of power could be seen as evil... well maybe not evil, but at least fearful and cowardly. They feared power and the responsibility it brought so much that it nearly paralyzed them. Thankfully, Mhoram was able to get beyond that fear.
The introduction, however, implies (to me) that Lord Foul was not created by the Creator. This is unlike modern Christianity where Satan is a fallen angel, a Creation of God... one supposedly created in perfection. Lord Foul is a more "purified" antithesis to the Creator... not subject to his power. The Creator was able to cast Foul within the Arch of Time, but the entire series implies that if he were to escape, everything would fall prey to his machinations, rather than just a single world. If the Creator possesed the power to prevent that, the imprisonment within the Arch would not be necessary.
To me, the most evil creatures from the series were the Elohim. According to them, they were "outside all judgement" (may not be exact quote) by man. They were also the most self-serving people. To me, it always seemed like Donaldson was intentionally "playing" with the readers perceptions of things by way of the Elohim.
Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?
Moderators: kevinswatch, Orlion
Hrmmmm
That last post was from me... not sure why I showed up as Guest... could have sworn I was logged in. 
Oh well.
Davin
Oh well.Davin
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Earthblood
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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Davin, again I say - for someone who wasn't sure how he might contribute....WOW
I don't know about the Lords being evil...ignorant of all the facts maybe or even guillty of 'wishfull thinking'. The OoP was thier prime motivation and a purely 'good' intention. It backfired in the end, but I don't see them as being evil (IMHO).
Keep up the good posts!
I don't know about the Lords being evil...ignorant of all the facts maybe or even guillty of 'wishfull thinking'. The OoP was thier prime motivation and a purely 'good' intention. It backfired in the end, but I don't see them as being evil (IMHO).
Keep up the good posts!
"You're afraid of yourself."
Slow day at work I guess. 
Can't say I'll always be able to post this much.
I'll try to explain how I perceived the Lords a bit better....
To me, it is similar to a sword laying beside you. To pick it up and kill someone at random, or even someone specific out of hatred, would be considered 'evil' by most folks. However, what would their perceptions be if I saw an innocent child being attacked and refused to pick up the sword and try to help him/her... assuming I couldn't help him/her without it. Allowing evil to have its way can be perceived as just another form of evil. Or as I said earlier, just cowardice. In my view, because the Lords feared the use of power, Lord Foul grew more powerful, more quickly... more people died and paid the price the Lords might have taken upon themselves. They even stated at one point that no one should risk Despair (and another Desecration) with such power at their disposal. That's like abdicating your moral obligations/responsibilities to others. Is failing yourself and others more evil than failing to try? Kevin seemed far more impressive a Lord (morally, that is) than any of those (short of Mhoram) that set aside their exploration of power in favor of some supposed less-risky approach.
There are plenty of folks that will argue that, no matter what the cause, picking up the sword is itself evil. That's why good and evil seem to me more often a matter of perception rather than an absolute truth. But I'm getting fruther from the topic and deeper into philosophy I guess.
Davin
Can't say I'll always be able to post this much.I'll try to explain how I perceived the Lords a bit better....
To me, it is similar to a sword laying beside you. To pick it up and kill someone at random, or even someone specific out of hatred, would be considered 'evil' by most folks. However, what would their perceptions be if I saw an innocent child being attacked and refused to pick up the sword and try to help him/her... assuming I couldn't help him/her without it. Allowing evil to have its way can be perceived as just another form of evil. Or as I said earlier, just cowardice. In my view, because the Lords feared the use of power, Lord Foul grew more powerful, more quickly... more people died and paid the price the Lords might have taken upon themselves. They even stated at one point that no one should risk Despair (and another Desecration) with such power at their disposal. That's like abdicating your moral obligations/responsibilities to others. Is failing yourself and others more evil than failing to try? Kevin seemed far more impressive a Lord (morally, that is) than any of those (short of Mhoram) that set aside their exploration of power in favor of some supposed less-risky approach.
There are plenty of folks that will argue that, no matter what the cause, picking up the sword is itself evil. That's why good and evil seem to me more often a matter of perception rather than an absolute truth. But I'm getting fruther from the topic and deeper into philosophy I guess.
Davin
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danlo
- Lord
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Yes u're starting 2 get in2 semantics, but I really like ur take on the Elohim and ur theory! Pacifism vs non-violent. Was The Land 2 "idyllic", did it need 2 get slapped around? And re: TC's headgame-I kinda purposed that b4, but if that was the case--how or y would and could he incorporate LA in2 it? 
And if that's not a twisted question... 
And if that's not a twisted question... fall far and well Pilots!
IMHO, The Creator and Lord Foul are not representive of the God and Satan of christianity. I do not believe either represent any diety of Earth origin. But both, I feel, provided a model for Foul and The Creator.
It appears that Creator and Lord Foul may have limited influence on Earth-bound matters yet can set into motion the necessary gears to see their will performed on Earth. Whileas, in the Land, they appear more powerful. The Creator is much more difficult to identify or figure because he moves with such anonymity.
Is his influence constant or perfect (ala grand manipulator)? Undecided. The Creator has limited his power because of the delicate balance the Arc of Time possesses. It appears his influence within the land is chosen and/or dependent upon the cooperation of mortal free will. Whileas, Lord Foul represents a very active force, seeking to corrupt the land like a cancerous cell.
Or as some suggest, that the Land is nothing but a hallucination created TC's innerconscienceness.
It appears that Creator and Lord Foul may have limited influence on Earth-bound matters yet can set into motion the necessary gears to see their will performed on Earth. Whileas, in the Land, they appear more powerful. The Creator is much more difficult to identify or figure because he moves with such anonymity.
Is his influence constant or perfect (ala grand manipulator)? Undecided. The Creator has limited his power because of the delicate balance the Arc of Time possesses. It appears his influence within the land is chosen and/or dependent upon the cooperation of mortal free will. Whileas, Lord Foul represents a very active force, seeking to corrupt the land like a cancerous cell.
Or as some suggest, that the Land is nothing but a hallucination created TC's innerconscienceness.
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caamora
- The Purifier
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Davin - good points but let me clarify something. If I understood you correctly, you stated:
Sorry to get off the subject of good/evil!
Remember that the Lords didnt have or rather weren't aware of power until Lord Mhorham realized it in TPTP and he was terrified of it because. to him. it was and awesome power. It's one thing to have a sword to protect someone, but it is quite another thing to not have a sword but an atomic bomb! And I think that was what Mhorham was facing....the Lords feared the use of power...
Sorry to get off the subject of good/evil!
The King has one more move.
danlo wrote:Hile, I think u have stated the situation perfectly! A statement like that pretty well wrapped up a similar topic on the Watch's Old Discussion pages. I'll have 2 dig it up--it was aminabhavan who wrote it, if I'm not mistaken...Welcome! If I haven't done so b4!
Thanks Danlo!
It is a pleasure to meet other fans of SRD and participate in these discussions. 
Lords and their power
Caamora...
I was referring to the fact that the Lords quit reaching deeper into the Wards. In fact, if I recall correctly, they quit looking for the others. It just seemed to me that, after Elena broke the Law of Death, the Lords became very timid about exploring new power or their own limits. But it has been several months since I reread them... I may be confusing different parts or something. Yes, Mhoram's realization was about the worst power of all... Desecration. But that does not explain to me why they seemed to stop attempting to expand their knowledge. It was, however, Mhoram's breakthrough I believe which lead to the incredible advances of the Lords in restoring the Land between the 1st and 2nd series. With power in general, you can not achieve great feats of restoration without risking great destruction. This is a common theme in lots of fantasy fiction, and holds pretty true with real-life power/technology/whatever as well. It's never the power itself that desecrates or destroys, merely the user... but the Lords seemed to fear that possibility more than usual. To me, they were affraid... of their own weakness more than anything else. You'll never overcome a weakness if you live in fear of it.
Davin
I was referring to the fact that the Lords quit reaching deeper into the Wards. In fact, if I recall correctly, they quit looking for the others. It just seemed to me that, after Elena broke the Law of Death, the Lords became very timid about exploring new power or their own limits. But it has been several months since I reread them... I may be confusing different parts or something. Yes, Mhoram's realization was about the worst power of all... Desecration. But that does not explain to me why they seemed to stop attempting to expand their knowledge. It was, however, Mhoram's breakthrough I believe which lead to the incredible advances of the Lords in restoring the Land between the 1st and 2nd series. With power in general, you can not achieve great feats of restoration without risking great destruction. This is a common theme in lots of fantasy fiction, and holds pretty true with real-life power/technology/whatever as well. It's never the power itself that desecrates or destroys, merely the user... but the Lords seemed to fear that possibility more than usual. To me, they were affraid... of their own weakness more than anything else. You'll never overcome a weakness if you live in fear of it.
Davin
Davin, there was a distinct reason that the lords stopped seeking the old lore, and it did not necessarily have anything, 
, or it might have had everything to do with their fear of the nature of the contradiction of it. They said that the white gold was a contradiction, but the very nature of the power itself was a contradiction that none really wanted to face. After all, they had all taken the oath of peace, and the power that was at their command had that within it that destroyed that oath.
But the main reason that they truly abandoned their search was thanks to none other than TC. Don't forget that it was he who told Mhoram to search for other power. And Mhoram then probably decided that this would be a good idea, searching for power that would not violate everybodies' oath.
Unfortunately for the land, it was this very abandonment of the quest for the original earthpower that enabled LF to be able to warp it to bring about the sunbane. I believe that had the lord found all six of the wards (the seventh having been destroyed by the battle between Elena and Kevin), that they would have been able to do research to find a way to possibly imprison the ravers and possibly even LF himself. You notice that I did not say destroy.
, or it might have had everything to do with their fear of the nature of the contradiction of it. They said that the white gold was a contradiction, but the very nature of the power itself was a contradiction that none really wanted to face. After all, they had all taken the oath of peace, and the power that was at their command had that within it that destroyed that oath.But the main reason that they truly abandoned their search was thanks to none other than TC. Don't forget that it was he who told Mhoram to search for other power. And Mhoram then probably decided that this would be a good idea, searching for power that would not violate everybodies' oath.
Unfortunately for the land, it was this very abandonment of the quest for the original earthpower that enabled LF to be able to warp it to bring about the sunbane. I believe that had the lord found all six of the wards (the seventh having been destroyed by the battle between Elena and Kevin), that they would have been able to do research to find a way to possibly imprison the ravers and possibly even LF himself. You notice that I did not say destroy.
The dead are dead-only the living may hope to resist Despite
Hmmm, I had not thought about it from that angle before, but it still seems a contradiction to me. Many of the Lords and people of the Land had an inherent distrust of Covenant. Why would they so quickly take his word about Power and the search for it. It would seem rather silly to completely abandon a "known" path for an "unknown" one. In fact, improving upon that known path would seem the most logical choice given the circumstance. It would have, in my mind, prepared them for more circumstances... made them more prepared to deal with the problems Lord Foul threw at them. "a contradiction that none really wanted to face." That implies a sense of fear, in one form or another. These were the Lords... leaders of the Land, and, in my eyes, Covenant (if you care to blame him) turned them into just the timid minds that Foul needed. This strives at the heart of the problem I have always had with this series... the rather inept hopelessness of the Land. They seemed to rely rather TOO much on Covenant, despite their inherent distrust of him and his power. But I'm in a cynical mood today, and may be lending too much of a critical eye to my memory of the story. Enough rambling...
Davin
Enough rambling...Davin
They relied upon TC the same way that all leaders have in the past when it comes to any new and improved weapon. And that is how I perceive that they viewed TC. But rather as a weapon that they could control, he was a "loose cannon". Don't forget the old song that says that he would save or damn the land. And that was a song that came high lord Kevin.
The dead are dead-only the living may hope to resist Despite