Gardens of the Moon [Spoilers]

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Fist and Faith
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Well, I'm done with GotM. (And isn't it amazing that that's the title, when the Gardens of the Moon are only mentioned in one paragraph???? Unless I missed it being mentioned elsewhere.)

I really love various things. Holy crap, the T'lan Imass!!! Tattersail is great! Quick Ben! Whiskeyjack! Bridgeburners in general! The sound when Anomander Rake draws Dragnipurake!

But, although I'll read on whether or not I understand this book better, I wouldn't mind understanding it better. :lol: What the heck did K'rul do? What did Rake get out of all this? Why did the Bridgeburners keep Sorry around all that time when they hated her and were scared of her? What the hell is an Azath? It was a mage of the Crimson Guard who so easily kept the Tiste Andii from killing Crokus?
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Post by Holsety »

-I don't know what Kruppe gets his random dreams from but I figure that's one thing K'rul does, since they seem to work in tandem sometimes. That being said, I sorta see the elder gods as manifestations of elemental forces and shit, and sorta natural to the world. Even without people worshiping him, he's a source of stuff.

If K'rul is any example, elder gods made people, realms, not the other way around (all the gods popular now seem to be humans or other races who ascended and stuff like that, and were sorta put in place as arbiters of stuff they don't necessarily have full control over).

-You'll learn about Rake's motives later. Well....in book 3, they set one motivation up that he gives. Later, another character comes to a separate realization...which, though more depressing, is probably the case (I don't mean that Rake is secretly evil or something XD).

-An azath is basically a manifestation of order or something. There are elder gods who don't fully get the azath, no one really knows for sure.

The basic function of an azath house you need to/should be able understand from GotM is to try to capture and hold powerful beings, especially ascendants. Because powerful beings bring about change and chaos. There's tons of other aspects of azath, but you'll learn them on your own....When characters are clueless about something in Erikson's books, you are supposed to be as well.

Also, you should know that Vorcan and Rallick Nom ended up in one. Not trapped by one, but actually inside of one. But you'll figure out why that matters later.

Finally, I would argue that the azath mirror a period of human evolution both in Erikson and in the real world (particularly, cities and kingdoms and such), but it takes spoilers from midnight tides to argue that.

-Crimson Guard are badass. The only guy who's ever killed one that I know of is Dassem Ultror, and he's 'dead.' Skinner, one of the others, came alive from a duel with Dassem, and Dassem has been mentioned in the same breath as Rake, the t'lan imass first sword, and other crazy strong warriors. Honestly don't remember everything, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had mages who could match some of the tiste andii.

Also, keep in mind that yes, tiste andii mages are good, but very few of them are anywhere close to Rake. Also, Rake might have Starvald Demelain to draw on as well, no clue on that (but he should since he's a dragon).

EDIT: As for Sorry....

Good question, actually, I'm not willing to give a single answer. But...
-Kalam's intimidated by her, and she hadn't given any signs of wanting to kill bridgeburners (besides officers, hehehe :) ). If there's a hornet's nest in your home, and you don't know how to get it out without getting stung, better learn to live with it.
-There's definitely a certain fascination. What's up with her? Is she pure evil?
-The bridgeburners, especially quick ben, kalam, and whiskeyjack, aren't run of the mill soldiers. Ben should be a high mage, kalam should be a leader in the claw, and whiskeyjack should be a fist at least. They (particularly whiskeyjack) accepted their place for various reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't know their own competence and importance. Better watch and see if Apsalar has any major motives or whatnot, you know?
-After the siege at pale, I think she was sorta bound to them simply in terms of her managing to survive, even if there wasn't much camaraderie.
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Post by lucimay »

Holsety wrote: -
-Crimson Guard are badass. The only guy who's ever killed one that I know of is Dassem Ultror, and he's 'dead.' Skinner, one of the others, came alive from a duel with Dassem, and Dassem has been mentioned in the same breath as Rake, the t'lan imass first sword, and other crazy strong warriors. Honestly don't remember everything, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had mages who could match some of the tiste andii.

Also, keep in mind that yes, tiste andii mages are good, but very few of them are anywhere close to Rake. Also, Rake might have Starvald Demelain to draw on as well, no clue on that (but he should since he's a dragon).
you read Night of Knives yet???? :biggrin: more insight into Dassem Ultor there!! he's AWESOME and belongs in the company of those you mention.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Thank you, Holsety! Good answers! :D


I'm on page 70 of DG. I'm not at all bored with it so far! :D
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Post by Fist and Faith »

caamora found GotM!! Maybe she'll be able to start it this weekend!!!! :D :D :D
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Post by caamora »

Yes, I have it and started reading it.

I am only maybe 50 pages into it. It is interesting but I am wondering where it is going.

I agree that we are not given the opportunity to discover the world in the book but my interest is piqued enough to keep reading.
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Post by Farm Ur-Ted »

duchess of malfi wrote:If I have any complaints about the books after Gardens of the Moon, it would be his not completing story lines within one book - or even in adjoining books - in the series. If one storyline has caught your fancy, you could be in for a pretty long wait before he takes it up again a couple of huge books later.
I'm about 200 pages into Memories of Ice right now, which is one hell of a great book. I actually understand most of what happened in Gardens of the Moon right now, and may end up re-reading it and DG in the next few months (assuming I'm still stoked with MoI after I finish it). It's pretty clear that Erikson writes in a totally non-linear fashion. I can't believe that he would hold out on key back-stories from book 1 until book 3, but that's exactly what he did. I've read that he wrote GotM, and then 8 or 10 years later got a 10 book deal for the Malazan series with a huge (like ~$1M) advance. I think that that contract has allowed him to plot out a story line that is as complex as the one that he is working on. He must've had DG written by the time he negotiated the deal (and probably MoI), otherwise I can't see why Tor would've bought 10 books from him based on GotM.

Anyway, if you're dying for answers to questions about all the weird stuff in GotM (the cards, ascendancy, the finnest, the azath, Rake and his freaky sword etc.), you have to read MoI. The writing is a helluva lot better, too. It has some of the best dialogue I've ever read. It's funny as hell, too.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm reading GotM-HoC before moving on to MT. I'm 100 pages into GotM, and I have a couple things.

First, just a comment. When Tattersail does the reading for Tayschrenn... MAN that's crazy stuff!!! It's amazing to watch how she interprets things as they come up. Very good! Impossible to quite follow, but it seems I "understand" it at some level.


But what's this all about. It's after the battle of Pale, after Quick Ben does the soul shift for Hairlock, just before she finds out about that and does the reading with stick-Hairlock:
You refused the Deck once before, the night before Mock's throat was opened, the night before Dancer and the man who would one day rule an Empire stole into your master's - your lover's - Hold. Would you deny that a pattern exists, woman?
Who's Mock?? I assume he's her lover/master? I don't remember anything about him from the first four books. Did I just forget something I'm about to read?? (I suppose any answer might need to be in spoilers, if it's not from GotM.)
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Post by Farm Ur-Ted »

Isn't Mock that wigged-out dude in The Illearth War?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

*ignoring Ted :lol:*

I just noticed that the very first paragraph of the book, and the whole prologue, mentions Mock's Vein and Mock's Keep. Since we never met Mock, I forgot. I guess 'Sail met Mock. Long ago, at that. But then, she's a little over 200 years old, so... Do we ever learn about him?
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Post by lucimay »

You refused the Deck once before, the night before Mock's throat was opened, the night before Dancer and the man who would one day rule an Empire stole into your master's - your lover's - Hold. Would you deny that a pattern exists, woman?
Who's Mock?? I assume he's her lover/master? I don't remember anything about him from the first four books. Did I just forget something I'm about to read?? (I suppose any answer might need to be in spoilers, if it's not from GotM.)
Time for you to get Night of Knives, Fisty! ;)

(not that i can remember if the answer to your query is actually in there, but if it's anywhere, it's in NoK :lol: )
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Mock was the despotic ruler of Malaz Island before the Empire, ruling from Mock's Hold. The Empire began with Kellanved's coup against him. It is mentioned, I believe, in Deadhouse Gates and possibly House of Chains, when people talk about who the original members of Kellanved's gang were.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I remember them talking about Kellanved's gang in HoC. I don't remember them discussing Mock, but that's why I'm rereading the first four books before going on. Too much escaped me the first time. Thanks. :D
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Post by I'm Murrin »

I don't think he's ever discussed in any detail, but the coup is definately mentioned.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Yeah, I definitely remember the coup. It was nice to get some info about that whole era!
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Hey Murrin, I got another question for you! :lol: And there's lots of spoilers below, so nobody read if they don't want to know. I didn't put anything into spoiler tags, so be warned.

Slightly less than halfway through the book, we meet Caladan Brood (and Kallor, who I didn't remember we had met before MoI). Crone flies down for a meeting with him.
"I know who holds the Spinning Coin." (BTW, I love the Spinning Coin! I mean the way some of the characters hear it. Very cool!)

"Who?"

"A youth whose bliss is ignorance. The Coin spins and turns a face to all those in his company. They've their own game, but it will converge with greater things, and so Oponn's thin threads reverberate in spheres otherwise immune to the Jesters' influence."

"What does Rake know?"

"Of this, little. But you well know his dislike of Oponn. He would cut those threads given the opportunity."

"Idiot," Brood muttered. He thought for a time, unmoving, like a shaping of stone and iron, while Crone ambled back and forth...

"Without Oponn, Rake's power is presently unmatched," Brood said,. "He hangs over Darujhistan like a beacon and the Empress is sure to send something against him. Such a battle would-"

"Level Darujhistan," Crone chirped brightly. "In flames numbering twelve, so fly the Free Cities, so much ash in the wind."

"Rake's disdain for everything beneath him has left us stumbling and flat on our faces one time too many," Brood said.

"Once again," she sighed, "Caladan Brood the Great Warrior seeks the bloodless way. Rake gets that coin and he'll pull Oponn right in and spit the Lord and Lady on that lovely sword of his. Imagine the chaos that would ensue - a wonderful ripple that could topple gods and deluge realms." She heard her own excitement and reveled in its blatancy. "Such fun."

"Quiet, bird," Brood said. "The Coin Bearer needs protection, now that Rake's recalled his mages."

"But who is there to match the Tiste Andii?" Crone asked. "Surely you don't intend to leave your campaign here?"

[a trade of mild insults]

"What do you know of the Crimson Guard?" Brood asked.

"Scant," Crone replied. "A company of mercenaries held in high regard among such kind, what of them?"

"Ask Rake's Tiste Andii for their assessment, crow."
Then Crone leaves, and Brood tells Kallor that he's going to get the Crimson Blade's Sixth Blade. We later see them prevent Lorn from killing Crokus.

OK...

What's the deal? Rake and Brood have been allies against the Empire for years now. (And we later learn that they've been allies for much longer than that.) Why stop Rake from getting rid of Oponn, and having that much less to deal with? They assume the Empress is going to send something against Rake, which we know to be true, and he would be much more able to deal with it. The Empire would be more easily thwarted, which has been their purpose for many years. All because of the possibility of: "Rake gets that coin and he'll pull Oponn right in and spit the Lord and Lady on that lovely sword of his. Imagine the chaos that would ensue - a wonderful ripple that could topple gods and deluge realms."?? Isn't it possible that things would not work out that way? After all, we later learn that Rake killed an elder god with the sword, and everything's fine. But now, to prevent Rake from killing these newer gods, Brood will pit himself against him?
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Post by I'm Murrin »

It's like they say--if Rake killed one of the gods, the effect would ripple out from there, affecting everything. Who knows what might happen because of it--it would be chaos.
Spoiler
Draconus was another matter--the Elder Gods were fading anyway.
They may be allies, but Brood--as you learn in MoI--is quite used to the role of keeping things stable.
Spoiler
Such as in refusing to allow Burn to be awakened.
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Post by Mithyaat Vam »

plus...somebody's gotta keep the Lord of Chaos in check!! ;) ;) ;) :lol:
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Only 200 pages to go in my GotM reread. Definitely glad I'm doing this!! I'm finding more and more that I didn't notice before, and thoroughly enjoying the things I did remember from the first time. Things are making more sense all the time. :D
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Post by Farm Ur-Ted »

I'm gonna have to do that soon, too. And maybe DG before I read HoC.
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