Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8

[Lord Mhoram]

What Ami says brings up something interesting...is the Land allegory?? Im not sure, maybe LF is allegory, or maybe hes just a regular character in a story. The latter is my story, and Im sticking to it!

[pitchwife]

I just thought about this: SRD wrote LFB in the mid seventies right? Wasn't that the time when the femenist movement was trying to bring public awareness to the subject of sexual abuse of women and children, and rape in particular? I believe that around the mid 70's rape reform legislation was initiated in the US as a result of thier lobbying.

-pitch

[Vain]

A few things from my side. When I first read the Chrons, I cannot remember if the rape scene was anything more than part of the story to me - I feel that SRD possibly introduced it too early in the Chrons - not enough time to be taken in by the Land - hence many defectors early on.

Second - I feel that TC introduces a number of disturbing social issues throughout the Chrons - hence the duality in translation ito meaning.

[Guest]

Vain, that is so true. We're only eight chapters in, and he's already tackled divorce, rape, and disease. Am I the only one who remembers that when AIDS first became a problem that some poor little kid who got HIV from a blood transfusion actually had to sue for the right to attend public school? I think that was in Illinois or Indiana and I want to say that his name was Ryan or Brian Wight or Wright. (Since I turned 35 my memory just isn't what it used to be). Would that have been before or after he talks about how the townspeople shun Covenant? Because it's surely somewhat similar.

[danlo]

The times in which this book was written and Allegory--things well worth remembering. Well, I've been afraid 2 state my theory as 2 what may have happened during the rape. Keep in mind that TC should, in no way, be justified 4 what he did. It's night, it's a dream, it's a nightmare, you wander off over a eerie bridge down in2 an alien ravine. Despite:

The hollowness of his dream became more obvious to his inner view, like an unvieled wilderland, a new permutation to the desolation of leprosy.

add 2 that his nerves and entire being gaining a whole new health. TC is pissed beyond belief! He knows he's absolutely insane and that whatever's happening here isn't real anyway. He doesn't stop 2 think of the consequences because if there were consequences he'd suffer true leper insanity.

So here's the theory: In Dawn of the Message Triock accuses TC of Raving and Atiaran explains to him, earlier, what a Raver is:

...It may be that the spies of the Gray Slayer are already abroad. It said that his highest servants, his Ravers, cannot die while he yet lives. They have no bodies of their own, and their spirits wander until they find living beings which they can master. Thus they appear as animals or humans, as chance allows, corrupting the life of the Land.

True, we don't see an animal or human in the dark eerily moonlit "interior ship's keel walled" ravine that leads 2 the sand on the Mithil. But I feel that right when Covenant is at his moment of descision, or indescision WHAM!! A Raver really tries to master him! I think the Raver may have 1st latched on 2 TC, warily, even before he crosses the bridge:

Already, only this far from the lights of the gathering, he felt the dark night beating toward him, circling on broad wings out of the sky at his head.

I believe that from this point on Covenant beginning 2 wrestle with a Raver, but he has no conception of what one is--he barely even thinks about the ring till Lena mentions marriage. And then he struggles 2 take off the ring, as if it's hurting him. TC fights off the Raver--probably due 2 the ring, but he doesn't know it. The Raver flaps away, but the damage is done. Especially after the slap--which sounds more like the Raver's doing than his. In a way the slap, or the strike, was just as twisted as the rape. And we'll learn that Raver's name fairly soon...

[Guest]

Danlo, I hadn't really thought about a raver in this context before. I have wondered before why LF never tried to take over TC and his ring with the ravers, though. Maybe you're on to something. The rape has never made full sense to me. TC, as others said, just isn't a violent person most of the time. And if a raver was involved, it might explain

Spoiler

why Lena ends up crazy (I've had three friends who've been raped, and while was a horrible experience for them, none of them ended up nuts. It would also explain why Elena is so weird.

[Earthblood]

I agree this is an interesting theory, but don't you think one of the Ravers or LF himself would have taken credit for it at some point?

Seems like whenever the 'boys' posessed(sp?) someone, the took great joy in rubbing it in...

I don't know - I still go along with the theory of TC being overwhelmed by emotion & sensation, bringing him to the despicable deed.

[danlo]

If you follow this theory remember that both Foul and TC r very, very new 2 this "ring thing", in fact the ring itself is as new 2 the Land as TC is 2 health. Foul might b saying this: Well, it took alot of energy 2 mess w/the "groveler" on the Watch...so let me secretly send out a spy 2 get inside Covenant's "wilderland". Thus the spy finds out some stuff that makes TC tick--and it's pretty darn, well if not scary, new stuff: Our world memories, leprosy, disease. No wonder the Raver is confused! Then it checks out the ring and bamm! The ring gives it a subconcious strike the same time TC strikes Lena. And it flaps off---Oh it does start 2 gloat, but that's after it recovers and doubles back... Halt!!! (do not spoil!)

[amanibhavam]

I do not agree with this;µ IMHO Lord Foul is very well aware from the very beginning of the necessity of freedom: he cannot send his Ravers to master TC for two reasons: he has no use of TC if he is a tool, and he dare not let his "boys" have the ring.

Rather let's put it this way: violence was "in the air" that night. It would have come anyway, there was to much tension, frustration, fury built up in TC that needed an outlet. If it hadn't been for the return of his potency, it would have been maybe murder or brutality. But LF had mocked him by returning his long-forgotten potency to him - so rape was a logical consequence.

[pitchwife]

I have to agree with Ami on this issue.
There is one more reason I think it wasn't the work of Foul or a Raver, and that is the issue of responsibility. Assuming someone else possesed or even influenced TC greatly relieves him of the responsibility of doing this terrible deed, and isn't it guilt that is TC's main motivator through the first Chronicles?

Spoiler

I remember that when Linden calls on him at the beginning of the second Chronicles, she is holding his last book, and it's title has something to do with guilt.

-pitch

[danlo]

I believe that Foul sent the Raver out 2 track TC and see what makes him tick--2 some degree he is just as "closed" 2 Foul as he is 2 the reg. inhabitants of the Land. LF never told the Raver about the ring. The Raver makes a foolish move and tries 2 master him, but the ring hurts him a flings him off in2 the hills nursing his wounds--and he, somewhat, loses track as he scurries back 2 Mt. Thunder...

[Lord Mhoram]

Interesting....when would have this foolish move been made?

[Guest]

it's pretty obvious that there's a raver around, probably tracking tc and atiaran

Spoiler

i think that it's a raver who murders that poor waynhim, and also a raver shows up at soaring woodhelvin

-- question is, when does it show up? and if it did try to take tc and fails, then it wouldn't brag about it. can a raver influence someone to violence, etc. without actually being in pocession, so to speak? can it exert its malevolence without a host? can it just be nearby and influence people? i've always just thought that something in him snapped and he went temporarily nuts, but danlo might be on to something here...wouldn't it be nice to be able to blame our problems on ravers? hitler, stalin, the d.c sniper...

[aliantha]

I didn't mean to start the ball rolling and then check out for several days -- life intervened (work has been REALLY busy for the past few weeks...). Some discussion leader I am! Thank the gods that y'all can carry on without me! And an admirable job y'all have done, too!

Anyhow... Pitch, thanks for the kind words. I, too, always thought that the rape was TC's reaction to the overwhelming sensory input, and he just snapped. It wasn't until I read it through this time, and paid attention to the dialogue right before the dastardly deed, that I came to the realization that Lena, in her way, challenged TC's grip on sanity. In my quote, I left out one more line of dialogue before the attack: TC says, "Are you trying to drive me crazy?" He truly feels that his sanity is on the line.

Vain and Danlo, an interesting idea about the Raver. Certainly DoM is right -- Covenant is usually far from being a violent person.

Spoiler

After all, he spends the rest of the six books beating himself up over the rape. And yes, on another topic, I agree that it was a Raver that attacked the waynhim.

But Guest is also right that the Ravers tend to take every available opportunity to trumpet their evil deeds, and none of them ever takes responsibility for possessing TC at the critical moment. And certainly it's not outside the realm of possibility for humans to "go crazy" and act out of character when under extreme stress. I also agree with Amy -- TC is no good to LF if TC does not act of his own free will. LF won't have any fun unless TC corrupts himself, without a Raver's help.

Guest, I agree that a Raver may be possessing the DC sniper. That's possibly the only explanation for some jerk that uses humans for target practice, and says he'll stop only if he's paid millions of dollars. Sheesh. My kids' schools have been in lockdown for the past, what, two weeks now? And I'm getting a little tired of worrying about it.... I think, when the police catch this guy, they should allow the victims' families first crack at him, and then let every parent (and every kid!) in the region at him next.... But that's a topic for the Current Events thread, so I'll stop now....

[Nerdanel]

Some random thoughts:

I agree that it was Covenant who committed rape, not a raver. However it is interesting that the other side of Mithil has a bad reputation. Lena had previously not come to harm there, but of course she had been alone... But despite possible emanations of evil, I think Covenant is still guilty and acted of his own free will.

"You are strange, Thomas Covenant." This is said by Atiaran and it mirrors exactly Lena's words several chapters earlier. Covenant's way of thinking is alien to the Land.

Surprisingly, Covenant remembers that the High Lord is called Prothall son of Dwillian. This is very remarkable considering that it was a small detail in the middle of a long monologue about a completely unfamiliar subject. There is certainly magic involved. Notice also the effect his quote has on the surroundings. Whether the effect was real or perceived, there can now be no question in Atiaran's mind Covenant's mission is a real one.

The people still use stone knives, although we know from Atiaran's story about Berek that metal has been known in the Land for over three thousand years. The people are content with their level of technology, but Kevin's magical lore is under heavy study. I think being in harmony with the Earth is a factor here, but tales of a previous magical golden age and the absence of knowledge that technology can be used for amazing things like televisions are perhaps more important. The Lords are trying to replicate the past with the added element of Oath of Peace.

[Guest]

Yes, Mithil Stonedown DOES seem to be surrounded by places of ill reputation, doesn't it? Kevin's Watch has a bad rep, and now we learn that the other side of the Mithil also has one. Makes you wonder why people live there...

[Lord Mhoram]

I dont buy this whole Raver thing, Id need more evidence.

IF the Raver was following Covenant and Atiaran, then it is definitely possible that it killed the Waynhim.(Other then that I cant think of anything else that could have killed it) But, if the Raver attempted to kill, maim, or steal from Covenant, then he would have most certainly felt it. If my memory serves me well, then there was no instance when Covenant felt power going through him, except at the thunderstorm....but that probably has no connection to this, right?

This brings up $groan$ yet another question regarding question about wild magic. If Danlos theory is correct (although I dont believe it...), then that means that the WM acted like an automatic defense; acting as soon as the Raver touched Covenant, w/out Covenant feeling or commanding it.

All speculation of course...

[danlo]

Yes that's basically it: The Raver skulked after TC over the bridge--Tries 2 "feel" TC out 4 his weaknesses--causing the strike, among other emotions. And just when it's almost grasping concepts of leprosy, Joan and other assorted alienation--the WM begins 2 awaken, sloughing the Raver off. It licks it's wounds then follows the 2 along w/Triock over the hills. It doesn't try 2 master Triock, just creeps him out enuf 2 fuel his rage. Then moves futher north, during the confrontation, ahead of them towards the Waymeet.

Spoiler

The idea is that the Raver is forming a triangle of it's infuence on the river, Soaring Woodhelven and at the Waymeet--as a "subtle" gloating, a warning-that Foul always knos where TC is, and as an example of the corruption that despite is now and has already been casting on the Land.

[caamora]

I would have to agree with Mhorham and Nerdanel about TC. He committed the rape - not a raver. I always saw it as this way: Here is Lena, a beautiful young girl who no less than worships TC. Adoration oozes from her and TC cannot handle it after all the months of human rejection because of his leporsy. Also, the fact that he has been impotent for so long and now can suddenly "perform", it becomes more than he can control. TC simply loses control of himself. Unfortunately, Lena pays the price.

My view is very simplistic.

[danlo]

Oh I definately agree, byond the shadow of a doubt that TC committed the rape, and is responsible 4 it--all I'm saying is that he got an unexpected nudge in the process...