Star Trek: Worst to First.

[Michael Giantfriend]

Can't really argue with the rankings nor the reasons why - except I'd probably swap around ST4 and ST6...

and i loved VIII with the borg .. the borg are the best race of ..... aliens ever!!

Methinks you'll find that the Cybermen would kick Borg ass all the way back to Unimatrix 001.

The Daleks would then kick the Cyberman all the way back to Telos.

Species 8472 would turn the Daleks into useful waste-disposal units.

The Rutans would send 8472 on a "Sun-Dive".

The Shadows and Vorlons would annihilate the Rutans.

The Sontarans would kick the Shadows and Vorlons out of their galaxy.

And the black obslisks would defeat all comers with their so-far flawless 1 x 4 x 9 geometricity...

[Fist and Faith]

Giantfriend, I don't know half of those races, but great post! But I can't imagine that many being able to kick 8472-butt!

[Skyweir]

Can't really argue with the rankings nor the reasons why - except I'd probably swap around ST4 and ST6...

and i loved VIII with the borg .. the borg are the best race of ..... aliens ever!!

Methinks you'll find that the Cybermen would kick Borg ass all the way back to Unimatrix 001.

The Daleks would then kick the Cyberman all the way back to Telos.

Species 8472 would turn the Daleks into useful waste-disposal units.

The Rutans would send 8472 on a "Sun-Dive".

The Shadows and Vorlons would annihilate the Rutans.

The Sontarans would kick the Shadows and Vorlons out of their galaxy.

And the black obslisks would defeat all comers with their so-far flawless 1 x 4 x 9 geometricity...

well we know the borg are no match for species 8472 lol dont we?

lol .. and whoever the cybermen are .. even if they can kick borg ass .. cos a lot of borg ass has been kicked .. lol .. they are still the coolest alien race ever imo lol

a race that assimilates its wide reaching distinctiveness from other races

lol .. and at the end of the day if cybermen couldnt kick borg ass .. then its .. ooooh "unique" distinctiveness would simply be assimilated and become a part of the collective being which is borg

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, the Borg really are an extraordinary group. I absolutely hate that the humans beat them so many times!! But anyway, it's interesting to think about how wonderful their beginnings might have been. Like the New Collective, they might have begun merely to share knowledge and strength.

And then things got a little out of control!

I'm not too happy about the Queen, either. Having one voice in charge of such a group-mind seems unlikely. I can see having one drone step out and talk to somebody they ran across. But then, there's never been a legitimate reason to talk to anybody they ran across. There's no point in saying things like, "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. There are no terms. You will be assimilated." Just do it.

But their hideous strength and absolute single-mindedness (literally and figuratively) are amazing.

[dlbpharmd]

Re-watched Star Trek V on TV this weekend - while this movie definitely ranks as one of the worst Star Trek movies, it does have one redeeming quality - the interaction b/w Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Their dialogue is classic Trek. Of course Kirk's premonition that he would die alone didn't exactly come true, did it? (See Undiscovered Country.)

Star Trek Insurrection - IMHO - has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I rank this below ST V as the worst ST movie.

The worst part of Insurrection was when Riker ordered the joystick out of the floor, and began to manuever the Enterprise like it was some Atari game. As if Sulu (or any helmsman, even Wesley Crusher) couldn't have done the same thing with their panel.

[aTOMiC]

But then, there's never been a legitimate reason to talk to anybody they ran across. There's no point in saying things like, "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. There are no terms. You will be assimilated." Just do it.

I TOTALLY agree. Unfortunately that doesn't make for much drama. Why do villans waste time giving the protagonist an explanation? Drama. Otherwise he'd just put a bullet in the hero's skull and be done with it. Dr. Evil's son made that point quite well in Austin Powers.

[aTOMiC]

Re-watched Star Trek V on TV this weekend - while this movie definitely ranks as one of the worst Star Trek movies, it does have one redeeming quality - the interaction b/w Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Their dialogue is classic Trek. Of course Kirk's premonition that he would die alone didn't exactly come true, did it? (See Undiscovered Country.)

You point out one of hundreds of rediculous notions put forth by Star Trek V. I suppose when Kirk was crushed like a pitiable bug by the bridge he was technically alone.
I suppose there are a few moments of good Trek in the dialog between the “Old Pals”. I find most of the film so insulting that I can’t bear to watch. I find myself groaning with actual pain when Kirk throws the Cat-woman bodily across the room. The rocket boots! Typing out morsecode s-t-a-n-d-b-a-c-k. Scott cracking his scull on the bulkhead. Uhura doing a fan dance. The campfire singalong. What does God need with a Star ship? The Klingons! Oh- my-god. Insurrection in my estimation was nearly as insulting but its greatest sin was that is was boring. Did I mention the Rocketboots?

[Skyweir]

But then, there's never been a legitimate reason to talk to anybody they ran across. There's no point in saying things like, "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. There are no terms. You will be assimilated." Just do it.

I TOTALLY agree. Unfortunately that doesn't make for much drama. Why do villans waste time giving the protagonist an explanation? Drama. Otherwise he'd just put a bullet in the hero's skull and be done with it. Dr. Evil's son made that point quite well in Austin Powers.

true enuff

but as for the borg who are so cooly clinical .. they are simply advising that "resistance is futile" they are not elaborating on game plans or the like For them its simple .. we - a collective consciousness - cannot be defeated so why waste energy trying .. its logical to comply! Its almost vulcan appreciable .. is it not?

So as for speaking .. though they possess the capability of communication .. I never found the borg a race to be particularly vocal .. and fairly selective with their use of communication ..

As for communicating the game plans between members of the collective to one another .. well they didnt use words .. so wasting them was never an issue

I see the borg quite different to the dr. evils of the world .. or other bad dudes that have to spill their entire evil plans before subduing their enemies

[aTOMiC]

My biggest problem with the Borg's now famous refrain is that its...to use their words futile. I agree with the earlier thought that they just wouldn't bother. There isn't any need for a "Pray to whatever gods you believe in because in 10 micro second you will be assimilated." The Borg have no need to communicate with other species in any way. Their aim is simple. Assimilate or destroy. That’s it. I don’t see any technical purpose for it. It is the mortal, flawed television writer that believes that it is necessary for the Borg to instill fear in the hearts of its victims by proclaiming for all to hear. "Resilience is futile." Or is it. “Incontinence is futile.” or “Re-zip-ness is futile.” I don’t particularly like the way Star Trek writers handle Q for the same reasons. How can a 35 year old television writer know what a nearly omnipotent being cares about? Its certainly not half the ridiculous things they have made Q participate in thus far. How long will it be before I see Q appear on Enterprise? Ugh.

[Fist and Faith]

The best thing that ever happened with the Q is the Voyager episode with the other Q who wanted to commit suicide, and was imprisoned by the rest of the Q. That was cool! "Yes, yes. We've all done the scarecrow." Great episode.

But I agree with all that you said.

[Skyweir]

My biggest problem with the Borg's now famous refrain is that its...to use their words futile. I agree with the earlier thought that they just wouldn't bother. There isn't any need for a "Pray to whatever gods you believe in because in 10 micro second you will be assimilated." The Borg have no need to communicate with other species in any way. Their aim is simple. Assimilate or destroy. That’s it. I don’t see any technical purpose for it. It is the mortal, flawed television writer that believes that it is necessary for the Borg to instill fear in the hearts of its victims by proclaiming for all to hear. "Resilience is futile." Or is it. “Incontinence is futile.” or “Re-zip-ness is futile.” I don’t particularly like the way Star Trek writers handle Q for the same reasons. How can a 35 year old television writer know what a nearly omnipotent being cares about? Its certainly not half the ridiculous things they have made Q participate in thus far. How long will it be before I see Q appear on Enterprise? Ugh.

well you make some interesting points even if i dont agree with them per se

i think you maybe underestimate the value of psy-ops (psy-stratergies etc )..

1. the borg dont elaborate on their evil plans for world domination .. so that arguement is imho .. entirely redundant

2. so we can agree that the .. very few words they do ever utter .. are in question.

3. and to my mind .. the pyschological effect of an aggressive force declaring in short .. their claim .. "resistance is futile" .. i believe is a powerful tool .. that attacks the emotional and mental state of its intended victims! combine that with the very real fact that they look like .. scary as all hell .. alien beings ..

to me this methodology attacks Borg opponents on more than just a physical attack level

Secondly .. overall .. as for the Q .. just who do you suppose could possibly author what a 'God-like being' would say or how a 'God-like being' would respond? I guess it would need to be a god or just never have such beings as characters in sci-fi or fantasy works?

As for 'Q' .. he imho .. much like an elohim in character .. in some respects .. but not all lol

I love all the Q episodes .. and he just a really superior alien being .. i dont think a god-like figure is necessarily the best way of the Star Trek guys introducing him .. he is more like the Knox race on Star Gate .. in that both races have amazingly superior powers .. but in comparison the Knox have had to learn how to behave with their superior powers ..

but again the Knox arent analogous to 'Q' at all if we examine their contrasting characters .. cos 'Q' is like a spoilt child .. Whereas the Knox have matured with their superior knowledge and abilities.

My point is .. just who do you imagine could write a better 'Omnipotent being'? especially if your criticism is that

How can a 35 year old television writer know what a nearly omnipotent being cares about?

so who does that realistically leave? Are you aware of any omnipotent beings who would like to dabble in a bit of science-fiction script writing?

[Fist and Faith]

3. and to my mind .. the pyschological effect of an aggressive force declaring in short .. their claim .. "resistance is futile" .. i believe is a powerful tool .. that attacks the emotional and mental state of its intended victims! combine that with the very real fact that they look like .. scary as all hell .. alien beings ..

I believe the Borg would reply: "'Psychological effect' is irrelevant. 'Emotional and mental state' is irrelevant. 'Scary' is irrelevant."
If there really was a Borg out there, I don't think they'd have any communication system whatsoever, other than however their hive-mind works. I don't think they'd see any point in communicating with their intended victims, so why take up room on the ship with the communication equipment?

My point is .. just who do you imagine could write a better 'Omnipotent being'? especially if your criticism is that

How can a 35 year old television writer know what a nearly omnipotent being cares about?

so who does that realistically leave? Are you aware of any omnipotent beings who would like to dabble in a bit of science-fiction script writing?

heh. Good point. But come on! Q always said they were omnipotent, and I never saw evidence otherwise. Although Q (not Q, Q) said something like, "We're not omnipotent, whatever Q has told you." But if they had limits, they were way beyond our comprehension. And what does this being of such power do with himself? He dresses everybody up like Robin Hood and his Merry Men!

Then there's the civil war in the Continuum. They tried to get Janeway to mate with Q, because they figured such a child, the result of the sexual union of a Q, would be a new thing, a next step in Q-volution, or however they worded it. It ended with Q and Lady Q touching fingers, thus conceiving a child. Duh, they already HAD a child who was the result of the sexual union of two Q's! *shakes head* (But all the Q stuff may be worth it for the great Q line in the TNG episode with that first Q child: "Crusher sounds more shrill every year!" )

I think maybe clearfrontier's point is that humans CAN'T write omnipotent beings - and so should stop trying. It always comes out lame, and full of contradictions.

[Skyweir]

3. and to my mind .. the pyschological effect of an aggressive force declaring in short .. their claim .. "resistance is futile" .. i believe is a powerful tool .. that attacks the emotional and mental state of its intended victims! combine that with the very real fact that they look like .. scary as all hell .. alien beings ..

I believe the Borg would reply: "'Psychological effect' is irrelevant. 'Emotional and mental state' is irrelevant. 'Scary' is irrelevant."

your missing the point .. Borg have assimilated 100s of different species and i do not believe they would not possess the intelligence to know how to defeat an enemy .. not just physically .. and the fact that they utter this token declaration .. to me is evidence of that!

If there really was a Borg out there, I don't think they'd have any communication system whatsoever, other than however their hive-mind works. I don't think they'd see any point in communicating with their intended victims, so why take up room on the ship with the communication equipment?

I guess because as i have already explained it may not be efficient means of communication for the borg collective - borg collective .. it is necessary for borg to other species.

ofcourse the Borg are merely a fictional creation .. so its fairly moot .. however .. being a fictional creation .. they are as their creator (writers) deigned them to be .. and thus they DO possess this approach as so designated
{quote="Fist"]

My point is .. just who do you imagine could write a better 'Omnipotent being'? especially if your criticism is that

How can a 35 year old television writer know what a nearly omnipotent being cares about?

so who does that realistically leave? Are you aware of any omnipotent beings who would like to dabble in a bit of science-fiction script writing?

heh. Good point. But come on! Q always said they were omnipotent, and I never saw evidence otherwise. [/quote] whats your point .. i already said that

]Although Q (not Q, Q) said something like, "We're not omnipotent, whatever Q has told you." But if they had limits, they were way beyond our comprehension. And what does this being of such power do with himself? He dresses everybody up like Robin Hood and his Merry Men!

Then there's the civil war in the Continuum. They tried to get Janeway to mate with Q, because they figured such a child, the result of the sexual union of a Q, would be a new thing, a next step in Q-volution, or however they worded it. It ended with Q and Lady Q touching fingers, thus conceiving a child. Duh, they already HAD a child who was the result of the sexual union of two Q's! *shakes head* (But all the Q stuff may be worth it for the great Q line in the TNG episode with that first Q child: "Crusher sounds more shrill every year!" )

yeah they were pretty silly beings .. and everyone knows they were pretty silly beings .. they injected some humour .. That particular episode was notably gag-worthy .. true .. but i am not attempting to defend the 'Q' as a creation .. moreso the writers ability to write them.

If you want to criticise ideas .. i think some of the original star trek episodes are littered with really dum creatures .. and comparatively ludicrous special effects .. ahead of their time .. but looking back .. uggh

but amazingly forward thinking writers .. who took controversial social and ideological concepts and used them to explore their virtues.

I think maybe clearfrontier's point is that humans CAN'T write omnipotent beings - and so should stop trying. It always comes out lame, and full of contradictions.

Yeah i get what clear is trying to say .. but i think this is ludicrous. SRD wrote a creator character .. as have numbers of really excellent authors. what they shouldnt?

what would the chronicles be without the creator?

I dont think that creators or omnipotent beings are out of our creative league .. so what if we get it wrong? who's gonna correct us? isnt that the POINT of creative writing?

hasnt clear himself written about an omnipotent being before ever ..

I think ominipotent beings are over-rated lol .. why should our creative processes be limited by a fictional notion?

arent omnipotent beings a fictional concept? or are there real omnipotent beings that would take exception at being unfairly portrayed?

Creativity .. is a notion that non-omnipotent beings can and inevitably will also dabble in



NB: please note above comments made with appropriate degree of facetiousness

[aTOMiC]

1. The point I made about the Borg's refrain being illogical is just my impression. The fact of the matter is the Borg wouldn’t be the same for us the viewer/fan without it.
2. The point I made about television writers not knowing what its like to be omnipotent is irrelevant. Writers / Dreamers conjure visions of beings and worlds they could never hope to experience in reality. It isn’t that they aren’t qualified to speculate in a drama what an omnipotent being would behave like, its just that I personally believe that these particular writers didn’t do a particularly believable job with Q more than half the time. Roddenberry’s Q from Encounter at Farpoint seemed flamboyant with a sense of deliberation. Not the rather flighty, irrational sometimes ridiculous Q I have perceived of late. A more ardent Star Trek fan than my self would be hard to find. I criticize out of love and boredom.

[Fist and Faith]

A more ardent Star Trek fan than my self would be hard to find. I criticize out of love and boredom.

The "love" part, at least, is obvious. I'm rather envious of the depth and detail of your knowledge. I couldn't have come up with that list of captains to save my life!


Hey, here's my very favorite moment in Star Trek history. The whole episode is incredible, the whole scene fantastic, and this line always brings tears to my eyes:

"My daughter will grow up believing that I am a traitor. But she will grow up."

[aTOMiC]

Hey, here's my very favorite moment in Star Trek history. The whole episode is incredible, the whole scene fantastic, and this line always brings tears to my eyes:

"My daughter will grow up believing that I am a traitor. But she will grow up."

Trivia! Hell and Blood Fist!

I'm afraid you might have stumped me there. The only think I can think of is it may be Picard talking about his alternate lifetime daughter in the episode "Inner Light". I may have absorbed too much Star Trek over the years but trivia is not my strength.

[Skyweir]

1. The point I made about the Borg's refrain being illogical is just my impression. The fact of the matter is the Borg wouldn’t be the same for us the viewer/fan without it.
2. The point I made about television writers not knowing what its like to be omnipotent is irrelevant. Writers / Dreamers conjure visions of beings and worlds they could never hope to experience in reality. It isn’t that they aren’t qualified to speculate in a drama what an omnipotent being would behave like, its just that I personally believe that these particular writers didn’t do a particularly believable job with Q more than half the time. Roddenberry’s Q from Encounter at Farpoint seemed flamboyant with a sense of deliberation. Not the rather flighty, irrational sometimes ridiculous Q I have perceived of late. A more ardent Star Trek fan than my self would be hard to find. I criticize out of love and boredom.

well now we got that sorted .. lol and like Fist it is clear you are an indeed an ardent and knowledgable fan .. I dont have all the episodes memorised .. nor can i recall in detail many of the episodes at all .. but I absolutely love Star Trek .. all but the original series <blasphemous notion i know>.. sorry tis me .. but i just dont really enjoy watching the cardboard lava monsters <Galaxy Quest ref> ..

you have raised some excellently interesting discussion fodder .. and truly no offence intended in fact i actually agree with you .. lol re: the later 'Q's were indeed bordering on the incredible .. and discreditable .. for such superior omnipotent beings

The point I made about television writers not knowing what its like to be omnipotent is irrelevant ... I personally believe that these particular writers didn’t do a particularly believable job with Q more than half the time

I am not sure "irrelevant" is the correct term but hey .. yeah ofcourse they cannot know what being omnipotent is like and i agree .. some of the 'Q' episodes were quite far-fetched .. but then a lot of sci-fi concepts are

[[Syl]]

Per the Borg's refrain... despite the fact that the writers had to think of some way to introduce/explain this big cube thing and such (if it was a DS9 ep, there probably would have been a whole episode instead of three sentences to explain it), I'd tender this theory.

Imagine the Borg just start out, you know, seeking new life. They come up to a ship, they probably didn't have the power to just assimilate it, so they send out a message. "We are the Borg, our goals are yada yada, care to join us?" After a while, they come to realize that with their strength, it would be more efficient just to say, "Forget the negotiations and all that, you will join us. No, really, you'll be better off for it." Assimilate, simplify, assimilate, simplify... after a whle they're left just with the rote message that's kind of a vestigial programming error.

My take on it, anyway.

Q... was annoying on Voyager most of the time. Didn't surprise me at all because I'd read that Janeway initially went for the part because she was an old friend of DeLancie's (sp?), but that episode, yeah. "I've traveled the road many times, sat on the porch, played the games, been the dog, everything. I was even the scarecrow, for awhile." Good stuff.

[Fist and Faith]

Go Syl! I thought that other Q did a good job of making us understand how he felt.

clearfrontier,
Heh. It's The Defector. Remember it? The Romulan Admiral Jarok? I don't remember the actor's name, but he also played Alexander as an adult when he came back to change his child-self so that Worf would not die in the future. And also the scientist from Neelix's world who invented that horrible bomb that killed so many thousands of Telaxians (sp?) on their moon, including Neelix's family.

[Skyweir]

Per the Borg's refrain... despite the fact that the writers had to think of some way to introduce/explain this big cube thing and such (if it was a DS9 ep, there probably would have been a whole episode instead of three sentences to explain it), I'd tender this theory.

Imagine the Borg just start out, you know, seeking new life. They come up to a ship, they probably didn't have the power to just assimilate it, so they send out a message. "We are the Borg, our goals are yada yada, care to join us?" After a while, they come to realize that with their strength, it would be more efficient just to say, "Forget the negotiations and all that, you will join us. No, really, you'll be better off for it." Assimilate, simplify, assimilate, simplify... after a whle they're left just with the rote message that's kind of a vestigial programming error.

My take on it, anyway.

literally LOL .. .. brilliantly summised roflmao

and as for 'Q' .. yeah yeah he was annoying .. I guess he had been there and done that .. messed with Picard .. hanging about the universe .. being bored .. saw Janeway .. much much later .. rubbed his hands together and said .. cool playtime! He was a big kid of an omnipotent being afterall