The Gap as science-fiction

Post by **dANdeLION** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:43 pm

Skyweir wrote: .. its more like science fantasy imho .. set in a science fiction context ..

Hmm. Maybe that's just because you view SRD as a fantasy writer. I do think that the Sci-Fi part was merely the background for the story SRD was trying to tell, but the only fantasies portrayed in that story were pretty sick ones.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:52 pm

dAN wrote:
Skyweir wrote: .. its more like science fantasy imho .. set in a science fiction context ..

the only fantasies portrayed in that story were pretty sick ones.

Absolutely.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:48 am

yes sci-fantasy may well be the incorrect term .. lol

i guess i am trying to describe the story under a fiction genre .. and to me the sci-fi aspects did play the backdrop moreso than the guts of the story ..

but this is just my personal view point .. I dont really see the GAp as truly sci-fi .. zone implants withstanding

clearly it had sci-fi themes .. but the narrative and the bulk of the story takes place without - as outside of any substantive sci-fi context ..

a personal observation .. when reading the GAp .. which is indeed and regardless brilliant .. i did not get a consistent sci-fi sense through out the series

Post by **dANdeLION** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:20 pm

Skyweir wrote:... to me the sci-fi aspects did play the backdrop moreso than the guts of the story...I dont really see the GAp as truly sci-fi... clearly it had sci-fi themes... but the narrative and the bulk of the story takes place without - as outside of any substantive sci-fi context ..

I think that if you look at any "good" sci-fi, fantasy, western, or fiction in general, you will find that the depth of the characters, the weaving of the plot, etc. tend to overshadow the backdrop against which it was written. But, having said that, I believe the Gap is correctly categorized as science fiction. For it to have been defined as fantasy, it would have had to have had elements of fantasy in it. like giants, trolls, hobbitses, magicians, fancy sword, magic rings, etc. Also, fantasy tends to happen in the past, and sci-fi in the future. There are exceptions, like Star Wars (a long time ago in a galaxie far away...) and The Sword of Shannara. If you want to read some other Sci-fi books that would be great no matter what the backdrop , try Herbert's "Dune", Asimov's "Foundation", Heinlein's "Stranger in a strange land", and Card's "Ender's Game". Skip the aformentioned Brook's book, though.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:30 pm

yes i have to say .. that a technical definition would have to place it only in a sci-fi category

but to me .. personally .. it only had the barest sci-fi feel

Post by **danlo** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:18 pm

Still confused

But maybe that's due to SRD's genius..he makes his characters stand out so much and explores them in so much depth that the background diminshes somewhat.

HOWEVER they were traveling around in space, confronting aliens, landing at space stations, space platforms, asteriods and planets AND Sci-Fi gadjetry WAS everywhere. So:

Post by **amanibhavam** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:04 pm

It has been already a matter of looooong debates in countless fora, how to define scifi and fantasy. My quick, ready-to-use instantly soluble definition is that scifi depicts a world that can be somehow logically derived from our present world, that by some sequence of events it could become our future (or past). Fantasy, while can have familiar elements, cannot be logically connected to our reality.
By this def, the Gap is definitely scifi.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:53 pm

amanibhavam, that is a terrific barometer for Sci Fi / Fantasy. It works well for the way I think. Bravo.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:48 am

mmm .. i am forced to agree

lol .. following your logic and definition .. i concede that it is indeed sci-fi

but i still didnt get a sci-fi feel to it

notwithstanding the "traveling around in space, confronting aliens, landing at space stations, space platforms, asteriods and planets AND Sci-Fi gadjetry"

though i am more convinced that i may well be in error ..

how many species of alien do we encounter? we mainly are engaged with humans and human type contemporary even dramas .. yes we are involved in these dramas in a space ship and travelling through outer space .. and there are gadgets and gizmos .. Angus being the largest and most animated of them

the Amnion are truly sci-fi at its best .. i loved this race .. they were credibly scary ..

but .. to me its like watching .. *prepares to be flamed and set upon*

.. ok extreme example .. Star Trek DS9 .. and ok its irrefutably sci-fi .. but umm .. its .. akin to a soapy or a tele drama .. i forget the right term and accordingly may well not have described precisely what i mean.

ok .. Enterprise .. sure it was sci-fi .. and actually did have a sci-fi feel .. but wasnt really imho .. in the same league of Star Trek sci-fi as the earlier series ..

ok this may also not be the best way to describe my perceptions .. ok its like reality telly .. yep its reality .. but is it really reality? i mean it is still contrived that responses arent true to what may occur in reality?

ok i give up .. i cant explain it .. its just the way i feel

Post by **amanibhavam** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:15 pm

I do not think your opinion is justified, but I am too tired now to think straight so I won't contest it.
Let's get it reverse: what _is_ true scifi for you? Is the amount of alien races in a book/film a measure of scifiness? If so, Star Wars is a winner...

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:49 am

lol .. *wishes she hadnt said anything* lol

for me .. and we are talking my personal feeling this time .. it must have a sci-fi feel ..

and the Gap only just makes it over the line for me .. because the bulk of the time .. for me[/] .. it really doesnt.

if it does for you .. well more power to you!

but for me .. it doesnt

*end of story*

Post by **UrLord** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:41 am

I would say that The Gap is more sci-fi than most sci-fi series...I think "Science Fantasy" would be an appropriate name for most sci-fi books out there, where science and technology is treated like magic is in fantasy books. If there are any problems, what's the solution? "Someone invented a machine that somehow does it," which is peculiarly like "A wizard did it." The Gap tries to solve as few problems as it can with technology...IE interstellar travel, and that's about it. Sure, there are other inventions "Matter cannons, singularity grenades, zone implants, etc" but these don't really solve any of the inherent Sci-Fi problems. Think about it, how many sci-fi stuff do you know of that actually deals with the effect of acceleration on the occupants of the ship? Star Wars seems to ignore it, I think Star Trek pulled the "someone invented something" trick, but the SRD just deals with it. Sure, his math may be off, but he's got all the ideas still intact. To me, this makes The Gap more Sci-Fi than Star Trek, Star Wars, Dune, or The Foundation, which tend to be "Science Fantasy" in the way their inventions solve all the space problems to the point where the events might as well occur at sea on Earth with wizards for all the impact space travel has on the story.

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:48 am

thats a very excellent arguement!

brilliantly compelling and i think i agree with all of it

its ok .. i have no pride

i abandom my earlier view soley on the basis of this one posters veiws .. urlord really convincing point!

Post by **danlo** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:00 pm

Oh and the rest of us had nothing to do with this? HA! Sudden "revelation" eh? (Sorta like how criminals "suddenly" find Jesus!

) See she wouldn't admit defeat b4 but instead tryed to slime and wiggle her way out like a good lawyer. But once Urlord posts and she thinks she can sneak away with it...I can't substantiate your closing arguement conselor

Post by **UrLord** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:37 am

wait...someone has actually been paying attention to my incoherent strings of rambling thoughts? and agreed with them?

Haha, well, I'm glad my opinion is valued somewhere!

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:57 am

well clearly no one elses arguements were sufficiently compelling

and what i liked about ur-lords arguement he defeated my own view point by giving part of it some validation .. kudos sneaksy ur-lordster

by giving validation to my use of the term .. science-fantsy .. and in a manner that best befits my own meaning ..

I could see I was dealing with a poster of discerning intellect and possessed of sufficient intellectual lattitude as to make place for considered cogitation with regard to my decidedly unorthodox theorem.

I respected this approach .. even in the face of being shot down in flames ..

but as i said .. i surrender my errant notions to the wisdom and greater intelligence of this group ..lead at its head by Urlord

*bows submittingly to the greater mind*

i rest my case

howzat danlo for some slippery sliming and wiggling??

LOL

ROFLMAO!! :p

Post by **Loredoctor** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:55 am

I love the Gap because it is Sci-fi at its best. I agree with everything Ur-Lord said. I think alot of supposed sci-fi is in reality fantasy (ie star trek and star wars). The Gap is couched in gritty human terms - we are mortal and so easily hurt - and hard physics. The consequences of technology on a personal and societal level are explored in detail. Further, it is a cynicist's dream - humans aren't perfect, which is a great view.

Post by **Tranquil Hegemony** » Fri May 28, 2004 7:53 am

The Gap is definitely sci-fi, not fantasy. I think perhaps Dune might qualify as "science fantasy", as it involves "magic" powers. And then there are things like Star Wars, which has a high-tech setting but is essentially fantasy with spaceships. Sci-Fi defined as our own possible future works, but might be a little narrow. Lots of good sci-fi storylines have no direct connection to present-day Earth.

To me, it doesn't really matter if something is sci-fi or fantasy, only if it's good sci-fi or fantasy. Anyone can slap some spaceships into a story and call it sci-fi, they can even explain all the physics behind their propulsion systems and it can still be crap. SRD is being what I call "deliberately vague" regarding the technology in The Gap - it's just not that important to the story. I'm reminded of an old short story by Edmund Hamilton, written about seventy years ago, where he describes controlling a spaceship with levers. By describing his technology in too much detail, he dated it. It's impossible to read that story now without laughing.

Joss Whedon's short-lived sci-fi series Firefly (soon to be resurrected as the major motion picture Serenity) employed deliberate vagueness to an even greater degree - they never even explain how their faster-than-light systems work. It just does, that's all you need to know.

One thing I wish SRD was a little less vague about is locations and distances. Com-Mine Station is in or near an asteroid belt. I assume that belt orbits a star (since that's what asteroid belts DO), but he never mentions it. Captain's Fancy, en route from Com-Mine to Enablement Station, can somehow reach "the farthest tip" of the belt, a red giant with "no significant satellites" (so I assume it's not the star the belt and Com-Mine is orbiting), Thanatos Minor (is that in orbit or just floating out in space? Is it part of the belt?) and Enablement itself. That's a lot of stuff VERY close together to get there without a working gap drive. Granted it does take them a few months, and Captain's Fancy's best speed is .5C (under normal operating conditions) but that still seems to put everything awfully close together. I suppose that's the point; Com-Mine is supposed to be on the edges of forbidden space. But it seems like nothing in the Gap universe actually orbit stars.

[disclaimer: I'm in the middle of my second read of the series, just started CAO. It's been about 10 years since my last reading.]

Post by **Tranquil Hegemony** » Mon May 31, 2004 1:50 am

okay, I forgot that there was a gap crossing involved on the way to Enablement, so that puts it outside of the immediate vicinity of Com-Mine. Thanatos Minor could either be far enough away to avoid being captured by the unmentioned star of the Com-Mine system, or it's so far out that its orbit would take centuries (kinda like Pluto, also a planetoid).

Actually I'm going to guess that the "red giant with no significant satellites" is in fact the central star of the Com-Mine system, which the belt and the station orbit. A star becoming a red giant would absorb many or all of its planets, and at some point the Com-Mine belt is described as being huge, so it could be far enough out to have avoided its expansion. It could be so far out that the red giant isn't particularly noticable.

Here's a diagram I made of the Com-Mine system and Thanatos Minor, based on Morn's examination of Captain's Fancy's trajectory in FK:

Post by **nuk** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:39 pm

I loved the Gap books for the story (the only other SF I can think of that might be better IMO are Joe Haldeman's short stories), but the physics errors are awful to the point of distraction.
It's been years since I read it, so the numbers I remember might be off, but saying things like "we're 1000 km from Forbidden Space" is kind of like saying "we're one nanometer from the Mexican border." The borders of interstellar empires couldn't be measured with anything close to that precision.
Or, "Captain's Fancy has a top speed of 0.5c." Relative to what?
The gap drive and other mysterious inventions of the future are no problem, but when authors try to write real science and fail miserably it's very annoying. It's books like this that make me want to audition as a science advisor.

So, when's the next Gap series coming out?

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Gap as science-fiction