Which Bloodguard was assigned to protect Lord Foul?
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aTOMiC
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In the fan fiction I posted recently to the Hall of Gifts, I'm working off the premise that the Despiser is well known in the Land and has a long history as an adversary. Foul has disguised himself as Lord Jeroth and infiltrates the council by portraying himself as a faithful servant of the land and a knowledgeable and lore wise comrade to Kevin, a trusted ally that Kevin repeatedly sends out to fight the Despiser and his minions never suspecting the irony of the scenario. I believe that Lord Foul is the name assigned to the Despiser after his treachery has been revealed and open war breaks out after Foul’s ambush at Treacher’s Gorge. After reading some of the preceeding posts I realize that some do not share this appraisal of the Lands history. Right or wrong I find this set of circumstances the most entertaining.
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Fist and Faith
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I haven't read you story yet, Tom, but what you say sounds good to me. They know the Despiser from long centuries of evil, but the name Lord Foul doesn't exist. Then the Despiser disguises himself, calls himself Jeroth, and Kevin makes him a Lord. Then they find out who Jeroth is, and name him Lord Foul. Very cool.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
I thought i'd BUMP this to go along with safetyjedi's new thread.
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And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
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And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
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SleeplessOne
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Which Bloodguard was assigned to protect Lord Foul (Jeroth)?
great thread, I found this to be a thought-provoking post (submitted two years ago !) and it led me to wonder if there are any instances in TCTC of the Old Lords using the Land-sight/Health Sense ? I cant think of any, if so the theory holds a lot o' water ..Here's one to think about: What if the flip side of the Oath of Peace was the gift of Land-sight? Consider these factors:
1) If the Old Lords had no Oath of Peace, they might lack some aspect of the Land-sight that Atiaran's people took for granted. In this way, the Despiser could hoodwink the Lords because they couldn't see him.
2) The only "new" people Lord Foul or his agents could hoodwink were the people of Soaring Woodhelven, when Jehannum paid them a visit, but even then they didn't like him - and their children saw him. Other than this one discrepancy, none of the people who swore the Oath of Peace ever mistook Lord Foul or his agents for anything other than what they were, nor did he try to convince anyone he had reformed.
3) The people of the Land in the Second Chronicles had no Land-sight because they had sworn no Oath of Peace. Therefore they could be deluded as to the nature of Lord Foul (as a-Jeroth) because they couldn't see.
4) And now, here's the kicker: Linden Avery DID have the Land-sight because she was a doctor, and as such would have sworn the Hippocratic Oath - our equivalent of the Oath of Peace. Never to kill, always to strive to save life - this is the central element of both Oaths. Thus, when she came to the land, she would be eligible for Land-sight since she had effectively sworn the Oath of Peace.
So even as the Oath of Peace had the effect of blinding the new Lords to Kevin's Lore, it had the flip side of giving them Land-sight so they could not be hoodwinked again. I think that the effect of the Oath of Peace "rubbed off" on TC in the First Chronicles because that was how the Earthpower was being "channelled" at the time, and his white gold ring would have operated in empathy with that. Thus he gained the Land-sight in the First Chronicles. In the Second Chronicles, the Earthpower had been subverted to the Sunbane, and his white ring was now venomous, corrupted as the Earthpower was corrupted - so he didn't get the Land-sight the second go around. And the kinship between Sunbane and leprosy would have attuned him to the wild magic more than the Land in its health, which he opposed - hence his improved ability to use the wild magic in the Second Chronicles.
SO, thanks for the bump. This is a great thread!! But I don't agree w/ this, although it's very thought-provoking. Is Mystikan still around?
If Kevin et al didn't have Land-sight I don't think they could have been able to use Earthpower, develop Lore, etc. (Yes, in TWL Gravelers, eh-Brands, and Riders can use power, but they need orcrest/lianar/rukh, and then can only tap into the corrupted power of the Sunbane. I suspect that Foul/Clave taught this ability to use them w/out healthsense so the Clave could do his bidding, but that's all they can do).
I believe that all the peoples of the Old times did have healthsense, such that this is how they learned to love and serve the Land so dearly. Perhaps they did not until the Earth spoke to Berek, but from that point forward the Earthpower was awakened.
The Ramen have not sworn the Oath. Neither did the Bloodguard. Yet certainly they have healthsense,
I find it much more likely that Foul/Jeroth was powerful enough to simply blind everyone else to his true nature
yet there were things he did, or bad things that happened without an explanation, that made Kevin suspicious.
If Kevin et al didn't have Land-sight I don't think they could have been able to use Earthpower, develop Lore, etc. (Yes, in TWL Gravelers, eh-Brands, and Riders can use power, but they need orcrest/lianar/rukh, and then can only tap into the corrupted power of the Sunbane. I suspect that Foul/Clave taught this ability to use them w/out healthsense so the Clave could do his bidding, but that's all they can do).
I believe that all the peoples of the Old times did have healthsense, such that this is how they learned to love and serve the Land so dearly. Perhaps they did not until the Earth spoke to Berek, but from that point forward the Earthpower was awakened.
The Ramen have not sworn the Oath. Neither did the Bloodguard. Yet certainly they have healthsense,
Spoiler
as do the Masters (and Liand, once he is freed from the Dirt). Of course, Mystikan didn't know this when the original post was made...
Spoiler
like the Mahdoubt 
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
My thanks also for the bump, Sleepless One. What a great thread this was and remains!
Yes, Mystikan always had something fascinating to say, and gave us more than a few amazing insights into the Chronicles. He made a grand total of just 68 posts during his stay, but he made every one count. Then he disappeared from the Watch not long after that post of his that SO quoted.
(I could say the same for Durris; I miss these absent friends of the Watch.)
Anyway, I agree with you, Relayer. I think I get Mystikan's rationale, but it still seems a bit of a reach.
Maybe it's hard to discuss this clearly because we're trying to nail down precise relationships between ephemeral, ambiguous things. Earthpower, Land-sight, health-sense, the Vow, the Oath...these aren't concrete quantities that we can assign point values to, like in RPG games, right? (Unless you really were making a Covenant RPG game.) No wonder they needed solid objects like the Staff of Law to whack around and make sense of it all.
Yes, Mystikan always had something fascinating to say, and gave us more than a few amazing insights into the Chronicles. He made a grand total of just 68 posts during his stay, but he made every one count. Then he disappeared from the Watch not long after that post of his that SO quoted.
(I could say the same for Durris; I miss these absent friends of the Watch.)
Anyway, I agree with you, Relayer. I think I get Mystikan's rationale, but it still seems a bit of a reach.
Maybe it's hard to discuss this clearly because we're trying to nail down precise relationships between ephemeral, ambiguous things. Earthpower, Land-sight, health-sense, the Vow, the Oath...these aren't concrete quantities that we can assign point values to, like in RPG games, right? (Unless you really were making a Covenant RPG game.) No wonder they needed solid objects like the Staff of Law to whack around and make sense of it all.
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wayfriend
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I'm of a different position. I don't think Foul was "hidden" at all.
You can look at what happened in Soaring Woodhelven in LFB as an exemplary case. The accept him, even though he is disturbing. He even offers them his name, Jehannum. Finally, they began to sense the danger, and offered the test of the High Wood.
I think what happened here is that the people of the Land were perfectly able to see, with their health-sense, that he was a Raver. But they didn't know what a Raver was, they were unfamiliar with them, they did not recognize what they saw. Because of the Oath of Peace, and their general peacable nature, they gave this stranger the benefit of the doubt. They presumed he was nothing more than an ill-spirited and dour person. (Like, for example, Pieten.) Being tolerant people, they tolerated, up to a point.
So now consider the Old Lords. They were not familiar with Foul, they did not know Foul, they had never met Foul. They may not even have known OF Foul -- I am not sure. Given those circumstances, they may very well have been able to "see" quite a bit into the nature of the Lord who was Lord Foul -- but didn't suspect what it really meant. Instead, they were tolerant, and gave the benefit of the doubt when no real harm was evident.
Finally, we have to ask, what is Foul's true nature. Is he inherently evil, like a Raver or the Illearth Stone? It may be that his evil comes from his actions, which can be caused by his circumstances. It may be that, at the core, his primary traits are wisdom, pride (to an excess), haughtiness (I'm sure), and a regal bearing -- but not innate evil. Lord Foul is not, innately, a bane of the Earth. He is from the outside.
It is even possible that, like Covenant, Lord Foul is "closed" to the health sense of the people of the Land, because he is from outside.
You can look at what happened in Soaring Woodhelven in LFB as an exemplary case. The accept him, even though he is disturbing. He even offers them his name, Jehannum. Finally, they began to sense the danger, and offered the test of the High Wood.
I think what happened here is that the people of the Land were perfectly able to see, with their health-sense, that he was a Raver. But they didn't know what a Raver was, they were unfamiliar with them, they did not recognize what they saw. Because of the Oath of Peace, and their general peacable nature, they gave this stranger the benefit of the doubt. They presumed he was nothing more than an ill-spirited and dour person. (Like, for example, Pieten.) Being tolerant people, they tolerated, up to a point.
So now consider the Old Lords. They were not familiar with Foul, they did not know Foul, they had never met Foul. They may not even have known OF Foul -- I am not sure. Given those circumstances, they may very well have been able to "see" quite a bit into the nature of the Lord who was Lord Foul -- but didn't suspect what it really meant. Instead, they were tolerant, and gave the benefit of the doubt when no real harm was evident.
Finally, we have to ask, what is Foul's true nature. Is he inherently evil, like a Raver or the Illearth Stone? It may be that his evil comes from his actions, which can be caused by his circumstances. It may be that, at the core, his primary traits are wisdom, pride (to an excess), haughtiness (I'm sure), and a regal bearing -- but not innate evil. Lord Foul is not, innately, a bane of the Earth. He is from the outside.
It is even possible that, like Covenant, Lord Foul is "closed" to the health sense of the people of the Land, because he is from outside.
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iQuestor
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WF said:
When Foul appeared , it could well be the first time he assumed a corporeal form and went among those in the Land as one of them. Therefore its very plausible that they just didnt know what they were looking at and therefore didn't recognize Foul as the despiser.
What I wouldnt give to read the passages where Kevin realized his right hand on the council was the despiser; talk about a 'Dude thats messed up' moment!
I agree with that -- its a fresh perspective and it makes sense -- and remember, the lomilliar test of truth only works if the one being tested does not surpass the tester, or something to that effect -- looked for a quote -- so it doesnt surprise me Foul was able to hold the orcrest and high wood.It is even possible that, like Covenant, Lord Foul is "closed" to the health sense of the people of the Land, because he is from outside.
When Foul appeared , it could well be the first time he assumed a corporeal form and went among those in the Land as one of them. Therefore its very plausible that they just didnt know what they were looking at and therefore didn't recognize Foul as the despiser.
What I wouldnt give to read the passages where Kevin realized his right hand on the council was the despiser; talk about a 'Dude thats messed up' moment!
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Weren't Covenant (at the end of TPTP) and Linden (at the end of WGW) able to perceive Foul with health sense? Of course they were from outside too which may make a difference and Linden's health sense was far more intense than anyone's else had been. Though strangely Linden did not have as fierce a reaction to Foul as she did to Gibbon and the other Ravers.It is even possible that, like Covenant, Lord Foul is "closed" to the health sense of the people of the Land, because he is from outside.
Well back to the original question. The Haruchai came to fight. That was their nature. They were so overwhemed from Kevin's generosity that they bonded and formed a vow to the Earthpower. They would serve the land in their way and it bonded their lifeforce with the land. They held it pure.
The real question is : when were they required to assign a Bloodguard to the Lords? Or visitor to Revelstone.
There is no reference to them warding Kevin or the other High Lord that I have read in the books. At that time of Kevin what did the Bloodguard do? What was the tasks assign to them?
It may be after the Ritual and the forming of the New Lord with the Oath of Peace that the task of warding came into existance. And it may be the Haruchai themselves who assigned it. Just like after 9000 years after Kevin the Haruchai deemed that they would become the Masters.
So I submit that there wasn't any need of assigning a Bloodguard to anybody during the time of Kevin. As TC is closed to the Masters and to the people of the Land in LFB. Lord Foul was closed to the Bloodguard and they couldn't fully preceive him for what he was. Lord Foul is from the outside.
The real question is : when were they required to assign a Bloodguard to the Lords? Or visitor to Revelstone.
There is no reference to them warding Kevin or the other High Lord that I have read in the books. At that time of Kevin what did the Bloodguard do? What was the tasks assign to them?
It may be after the Ritual and the forming of the New Lord with the Oath of Peace that the task of warding came into existance. And it may be the Haruchai themselves who assigned it. Just like after 9000 years after Kevin the Haruchai deemed that they would become the Masters.
So I submit that there wasn't any need of assigning a Bloodguard to anybody during the time of Kevin. As TC is closed to the Masters and to the people of the Land in LFB. Lord Foul was closed to the Bloodguard and they couldn't fully preceive him for what he was. Lord Foul is from the outside.
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iQuestor
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Logically, I think they would have each chosen (or assigned) a Lord to protect; there possibly were more haruchai than Lords, and those would likely be assigned related support tasks with the Warward, and possibly things like scouts and reconnaisence, Like Korik's mission. .
Without warding the Lords, there wouldn't have been much to do.
Without warding the Lords, there wouldn't have been much to do.
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What about that scene in The Illearth War when Morin and Bannor are forced into speaking the password for the Seventh Ward? It's revealed that they knew the password only because one of them was always around Kevin, thus the Bloodguard overheard his secret whisperings when he made the Wards.
Doesn't this more or less "prove" that the Lords in Kevin's Council did have personal Bloodguard? Or was Kevin somehow the only one that the Bloodguard followed around?
Doesn't this more or less "prove" that the Lords in Kevin's Council did have personal Bloodguard? Or was Kevin somehow the only one that the Bloodguard followed around?
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MM said
agreed. good call MM.
What about that scene in The Illearth War when Morin and Bannor are forced into speaking the password for the Seventh Ward? It's revealed that they knew the password only because one of them was always around Kevin, thus the Bloodguard overheard his secret whisperings when he made the Wards.
Doesn't this more or less "prove" that the Lords in Kevin's Council did have personal Bloodguard? Or was Kevin somehow the only one that the Bloodguard followed around?
agreed. good call MM.
Becoming Elijah has been released from Calderwood Books!
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Good points all.. but why would Kevin need warding? What could the Bloodguard do to protect Kevin what Kevin couldn't do himself?
What would have happen to the Haruchai army if they refused Kevin gifts and wanted war with the Old Lord anyways?
Kevin was the ultimate Loremaster for using Earthpower. His knowledge was built previously by his father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather.
No other has achieve the ability to use the full lore.
On top of his knowledge, he was the sole user of the Staff of Law.
Maybe that is why Elana chosen him to fight Foul..
What would have happen to the Haruchai army if they refused Kevin gifts and wanted war with the Old Lord anyways?
Kevin was the ultimate Loremaster for using Earthpower. His knowledge was built previously by his father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather.
No other has achieve the ability to use the full lore.
On top of his knowledge, he was the sole user of the Staff of Law.
Maybe that is why Elana chosen him to fight Foul..
What's this silver looking ring doing on my finger?
Personally I think that Lord Foul (I think that aTOMic's idea that he would have been called Lord Jeroth before his betrayal of Kevin has great merit, BTW) would have been assigned a Bloodguard protector.
As to which Bloodguard had that dubious honour?
I'd hazard a guess that it was the Bloodguard who led the least satisfying life. One who ended up dying in despair. Foul would have loved that. Foul laughs at lepers.
(I'm assigning Foul a little precognition here, but...)
I would think that Foul would have most enjoyed it if he had been guarded by one of the Bloodguard who were sent on the mission to contact the Giants in TIW.
One riven by centuries of self-doubt and recrimination, taken over by the power of the Illearth Stone, able only to watch from a small part of his soul as his otherwise fruitless death devastated the morale of the enemy.
All the time screaming within...
I think Foul would have found Korik's fate amusing if Korik had indeed been his protector. Sending him to strike at the very heart of the Vow and all he held dear at the cost of his own life... A veritable smorgasbord of misery for Foul to feast on...
It was Korik, for mine.
I'd also argue that Bannor was perhaps his sometime deputy in that regard, and that that may be a small part of the reason why Bannor left Covenant's side in TPTP.
As to which Bloodguard had that dubious honour?
I'd hazard a guess that it was the Bloodguard who led the least satisfying life. One who ended up dying in despair. Foul would have loved that. Foul laughs at lepers.
(I'm assigning Foul a little precognition here, but...)
I would think that Foul would have most enjoyed it if he had been guarded by one of the Bloodguard who were sent on the mission to contact the Giants in TIW.
One riven by centuries of self-doubt and recrimination, taken over by the power of the Illearth Stone, able only to watch from a small part of his soul as his otherwise fruitless death devastated the morale of the enemy.
All the time screaming within...
I think Foul would have found Korik's fate amusing if Korik had indeed been his protector. Sending him to strike at the very heart of the Vow and all he held dear at the cost of his own life... A veritable smorgasbord of misery for Foul to feast on...
It was Korik, for mine.
I'd also argue that Bannor was perhaps his sometime deputy in that regard, and that that may be a small part of the reason why Bannor left Covenant's side in TPTP.
very intriguing question, "which Bloodguard warded Foul", but imo if there was one he would have either killed himself in shame or his fellow Bloodguard would have killed him, for his failure to see Foul for what he was after the proverbial sh*t hit the fan. We are shown how very hard the Bloodguard are on themselves and each other when it comes to expecting perfection in service and there could be no greater screw up to them than being the Bloodguard to have warded Foul and not seen his true essence. to take it a step further, i would think that said Blooguard would not only have been eliminated, by himself or by his comrades, but he would have become persona non grata in the extreme, his name and existence purged from history by the Bloodguard, his name forbidden to be spoken, etc, etc.
