Hile Troy's Strategic Mistakes

[Lord Luof]

First, Hile was supposed to be a think-tank tacticial for the government. I recall something about him having the best answers to the Lords questioning and that is why he was made Warmark.

But he made at least two very critical mistakes.

A: He depended on the Ramen as scouts. I'm sorry, but when you are concerned about an army coming over Landsdrop, you place scouts at Landsdrop. There, they could be spread out & see extremely far into the east, north, & south because of their height. It would require far fewer men to scout that area than anywhere else in the Land.
As soon as the army was scouted, a bloodguard could make ride his mount to Andelain where an outpost would logically be. From there another bloodguard would ride a fresh mount the rest of the way to the warward.

B: The warward would already be in the center plains; just across the Soulease river where the gray & white flowed into it. This would place them in the best possible position to lure the enemy to Doom's Retreat or to return to the defense of Revelstone should the Gray Slayer march his forces through the Sarangrave Flat route passing north of Mount Thunder. The army could hold training out in the open, supply lines would be richer as the people of the plains could assist in feeding the army, and they would already feel committed to the war in a more tangible sense having left the safety of Revelstone. Most importantly, if anything did happen and news arrived late, they wouldn't have to push themselves to the point of losing thousands from exhaustion itself.

C: If the Lords were capable of dragging down tons of rubble from the cliffs of Doom's Retreat, then that should have been the plan all along. This isn't a case of hindsight is better either. It's already a plan to get them to a point where there is only one entrance. Simply take that idea further to its conclusion.

D: He should have had replacements planned in advance. If Quaan or Amorine dies, another takes their place immediately, and that person has a replacement, and so on. And while I agree with giving second chances & restoring courage, if someone under my command flinches once then I could deal with it, but I can't hold their hand through the war. If they feel inadequit enough a second time, I would replace them immediately. The Eowards are better suited under a dire command because their situation is dire. They got away with it, but they got lucky.

E: Hile Troy did a lot of good things too. He had Revelwood study for a communication method. He went to Kevin's watch to see the enemy. He set up good ambushes. He remained a leader under enormous stress. All I'm saying is that tactically he didn't live up to a reputation of being a man from a government think-tank. Strategists need to be one step ahead, not one step behind, and he would have had that army in tents long before he asked for Covenant to be summoned.

[jehannum_2000]

I agree with you.

I think SRD tries to drop hints throughout that Troy is inadequate for the task. Sometimes these hints can be subtle, sometimes not, an example of the latter being when Covenant 'had no doubt Troy was inadequate'.

Troy's thoughts don't quite have the level of greatness needed by the Land. For instance, when discussing Kevin, he uses the phrase, 'His big mistake'. Covenant questions him on this, expecting some great revelation, but all it was was trusting Foul. Not so profound.

Pete.

[Lord Luof]

I have to agree with you here. But there is something of interest there also with SRD's writing of the series. It seems that whenever he writes a main character, that character has flaws and those around him seem better. I'm not just talking about basic human nature (which he is very good at capturing), but rather that they seem to make their greatest mistakes while SRD writes the character.

For instance, in Revelstone, Morham is basically responsible for Trell's ROD. I mean Trell did everything but tell him outright what his plans were.

And, when concentrating on the Warmark, TC actually seems heroic or at least unafraid & understanding.

Is that a fault of the writer? Hellfire, who am I to judge such things? My novels are the dung of an urvile compared to his abilities.

I'm just suggesting that regardless of Hile's human weaknesses, I don't think he ever had the capacity to lead the warward. In the end, he relied on a miracle. In the end, he never actually tested the warward's mettle. And believe you me, had he first placed them in the center plains, they would have been thousands stronger, had he crumbled the walls at Doom's retreat, they could have picked them off as they tried to clear the area. The giant-raver would have had to use his majiks much sooner than was desired and simply to break through a defense not on the warward itself.

Nevertheless, I found the tale intriguing. I think that SDR is constantly telling us that the dynamics of human nature aren't neccessarily in their knowledge or even how they use that knowledge, but rather like a mood or how an idea suddenly comes to you. A person can plan a chess game all their lives, but until the game actually begins all the pieces are waiting for chance to change things.

[dlbpharmd]

There's a saying that goes something like this: No plan survives the first moments of battle.

HT made some huge mistakes, and that cost him and the Land. I agree with everything that's been said, on this and other threads. HT was not the great strategist that he was made out to be.

[hierachy]

You have to remember that HT's strategical abilities could only be as good as Donaldsons. Acyualy, I amend that last sentance; his was worse than Donaldsons, because Donaldson always intended for HT's plans to fail.

[Forestal]

i have to agree whole heartedly with everything said in this thread.

troy was unworthy of being warmark... an assistant and stratagist to quaan sure, but warmark no.

perhaps this is reflected when troy loses his sight... the land removing what it gave him because he failed it so horribly?

[aTOMiC]

Hile Troy, whatever we may think of his relative abilities is precisely what SRD intended him to be. We may quarrel with the adeptness with which his character was formed, however he served his purpose well. I ask you. Would Quaan have totally freaked out once he got a look at how large Foul’s army was? Would he have tried to throw himself off of Kevin’s Watch? In all despair would he have even considered marching the warward into Garroting Deep? I doubt it. Only someone like Troy would have been believable making those kinds of decisions. I do agree that in a practical sense the points made thus far are all valid.

[Forestal]

if quaan would ahve marched the warward into Garotting Deep is an interesting question...

i believe that in troy's position there really was no choice... either fight and die, or run into a forestal-protected forest... both seem like total folly dont they?

lets not forget that it was mhoram that enabled troy's army to survive, troy merely had the idea.

the question really is, would quann have despaired enough to risk the forestal's wrath? or would he have bargained himself against the forestal?

honestly, i dont know, but i think he would... i dont know why, but i get the feeling that he was one of the "the need of the many outweigh the need of the few" kind of people.

[Lord Mhoram]

Frankly, I think Quann, as a seasoned veteran of the Warward himself, would have inspired more loyalty in the army.

Does this have any relevance when you consider the scope of Foul's force? Not really. You must compare the tactical skills of Quann to that of Troy.

Quann proved himself very capable in defending Revelstone, but would he have been any good on the offense against a force of that scope? An effective officer, but we can't judge him as a commander who attacks other armies; unless he did? I can't remember.

IMO, simply no military commander would have been able to defeat that army.

[Forestal]

while this is true, there is the factor of the least loss and greatest gain... the real question is, who could have had less loss and more gain?

[aTOMiC]

An effective officer, but we can't judge him as a commander who attacks other armies; unless he did? I can't remember.

I realize it wasn't his own idea but Quaan did manage to hold the vanguard of Foul's army off long enough for the rest of the warward to march to Doom's retreat. It would take a heck of an offensive personality to ride out and tough it out with a force a fraction of the size you would be fighting.

[Forestal]

indeed, hats off to quaan, we all know who the true warmark should have been

[dlbpharmd]

Hile Troy, whatever we may think of his relative abilities is precisely what SRD intended him to be. We may quarrel with the adeptness with which his character was formed, however he served his purpose well. I ask you. Would Quaan have totally freaked out once he got a look at how large Foul’s army was? Would he have tried to throw himself off of Kevin’s Watch? In all despair would he have even considered marching the warward into Garroting Deep? I doubt it. Only someone like Troy would have been believable making those kinds of decisions. I do agree that in a practical sense the points made thus far are all valid.

I believe that Quaan would never have marched the Warward to GD - he would've viewed that as suicide, and the Oath of Peace would've precluded him from destroying himself and the Warward in despair.

[aTOMiC]

[quote="dlbpharmd]
I believe that Quaan would never have marched the Warward to GD - he would've viewed that as suicide, and the Oath of Peace would've precluded him from destroying himself and the Warward in despair.[/quote]
Indeed

[Forestal]

would it not also have concluded that destroying the warward in a battle with an army numberous times large than itself dispair also?

[Lord Luof]

IMO, simply no military commander would have been able to defeat that army.

As it stands in the book, if the Eoward would have turned to fight, they would have died. At the edge of Garroting Deep, they were dying. But much of that had to do with the fact that they were practically dead on their feet from a month of forced marching. Fresh horses & fresh troops would have made a huge difference. Also, Hile Troy wasn’t going to fight a war in which he would stand up to Foul’s army, he was going to use guerrilla warfare tactics. If Hile Troy would have been in the Center Plains to start with, he would have had a week to rest his men in Doom’s Retreat, to build defense trenches, traps, Lord word-wardings, and more.

Yet, for all that, my greatest fear while reading the book was that Doom’s Retreat itself could have been the greatest trap of all, the most terrible betrayal of the land. I always thought that Doom’s Retreat was folly from the start. Consider: The giant sees attacks the army in Doom’s Retreat, suffers loses, and realizes that the entire Land’s defense is actually out of the way. So, he turns his force to ravage everything along the way to Revelstone, beginning that siege years earlier than it would have occurred otherwise.

If I were the Warmark, I would have met the enemy in Andelain and used the natural hills & peaks & valleys & waters & tree lines to my advantage. As a defender, you can pick out where you fight. The attacker has to come at you. My fight would be to fall back to warriors who were performing the lighter work of making traps. We would fall back to the rivers where platforms and boats were awaiting us for easy crossing, and the enemy would either have to cross by swimming at great disadvantage or retreat from our raining arrows. At any rate, we would always be falling back along the Soulease to the White & then to Revelstone, where fresh troops awaited. Then there would be battle there. And regardless of how it looked, we would attack from two sides. From the gates of Revelstone & from another force that I’d kept hidden for this very purpose, 4,000 rested warriors coming out from Grimmerdhore forest in the East.

I don’t know how it would go. But while I was reading how exhausted the men of the march had become, I couldn’t help thinking how this would be a perfect opportunity for Foul to just leave them there, hundreds of leagues away from what they wanted to protect, unable to keep up against the savage march of the ill creatures of Lord Foul’s army. At least I wouldn’t commit that crime.

[Forestal]

u dont seriously think the lords would allow you to turn andelain, the heart of the land, into a warzone do you?

additionally, i dont think fouls army could enter andelain anyway... if they could, why did they leave it standing?

and i think it says somewhere that the lords were unsure of the fate of grimmerdhore's forestal...

imagine marching those 4000 troups into the forest, only to have a forestal that you could not have expected to emerge and rip your army apart because you had the nerve to enter his/her forest...

grimmerdhore, bad plan.
andelain, you gotta be joking...

[Lord Luof]

Maybe Andelain was just too vibrant for the creatures of ill to endure. But where does it end & begin. Can you put one foot here or one foot there & say this is Andelain. It isn't like the forests of the land which have a definate boundary. Therefore, one could still find useful places to ambush, among the foothills; and even the rivers which must be crossed could become extremely important to the defenders of the land. It would be like Normandy beach trying to cross those rivers with Revelstone's archers free to loose their arrows at the slow moving swimming enemy.

As far as the forestal, they knew and feared Garroting Deep, but later when Morinmoss had its forestal in the fallen Hile Troy all he seemed to be able to do is sing a little bit, speak to an unfettered healer, and possibly call upon the power of the Collosus, but certainly not make that power himself. At any rate, Grimmerdhore was at the most a Morinmoss and likely much less. It doesn't matter anyway though. They don't have to enter the forest, just be far enough way from the enemy when they attack Revelstone. The plan is still better than Hile Troy's desperate madness. That was a huge risk to take. The enemy could have left them all there and attacked an undefended keep.

[Forestal]

yes, troy knew that, but the risk could have paid off...

there is always risk in these plans, but you have to guess and stick with your disision...

does it say anywhere that troy came up with the idea of garotting deep once his army had been defeated? i personally think that it was always a backup plan somewhere in the deep dark chasm of his brain...

btw... when CC became forestal of morinmoss, he was new and fairly weak, but the power of the colossus would have been considerable... enough to kill alot of men anyway...

but grimmerdhore didn't have a new forestal... if it had a forestal at all it would have been a very old and very powerful forestal...

me personally... i wouldn't have taken the risk of it...

and yes you could step inside andelain on minute, outside the next... it says in the 2nd crons that the wildnerness of the fertile sun and the natural neauty of andelain collided at one point, where they contrasted... i dont have a quote, and i cant b bothered 2 go downstairs to get one... but its in there.

...as for revelstone... was it undefended? i dont think it was.... i think troy left some troups behind, otherwise the lords would have thought that he was a raving loony... i mean, who walks off and leaves their headquarters undefended?

anyway, i'm not trying 2 diss or put you down, we just seem to view this very differently

[amanibhavam]

SRD told us precisely, why Troy alone could be the one chosen for this task: because he was the kind of person who makes promises and then when seeing them impossible to fulfil he backs into corners from where there is no other way out just some desperate but heroic sacrifice. It was clear that against the army of Foul no ingenious plan could've succeeded. Only the desperate measure of taking them into Garroting deep could succeed, and Troy was the only person to think of that and have the heart to see it through. And Mhoram, of course.