Catholicism reverts (again)
Moderator: Fist and Faith
Why? There's utterly no harm done by praying for someone.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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I don't understand how he can just change things to reach out to anyone. Last I checked religion was about faith in God. This doctrine is supposed to be the word of God, no? Yet the Catholic church change it around at will.Lord Mhoram wrote:I realize he is reaching out to the conservative base, but why? It seems utterly idiotic to me, when the conservatives are the exact ones he does not need to be reaching out to. They're the ones who are filling the pews already.
And what happened to St. Christopher, the patron saint of travel? Is he still a saint or not? And if not why not? Maybe getting rid of him was an attempt to reach out to some minority group of agoraphobiac catholics!
It'd take you a long time to blow up or shoot all the sheep in this country, but one diseased banana...could kill 'em all.
I didn't even know sheep ate bananas.
I didn't even know sheep ate bananas.
I think this is the problem when "church tradition" is given as much weight as the Word of God. Just wait til another pope, it will change again. Alot of change when they're supposed to represent a God that doesn't change. I hope one day seeking after the God of the Scriptures is the RC's priority, not drawing more people in (and BTW, this applies to more than just the RC).
--Andy
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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DukkhaWaynhim
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Damelon
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Considering the last Pope got popped while riding in the Pope mobile, I could see the reason.Marvin wrote:I love the Pope, I love seeing him in his Pope-Mobile, his three feet of bullet proof plexi-glass. That's faith in action folks! You know he's got God on his side.
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.
Sam Rayburn
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Lord Mhoram
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I don't have a problem with anybody praying for me about anything. If I don't believe they are praying to a God that exists, then what do I care about what they are actually praying about? Too many people are too sensitive in this world. Imagine if they don't pray in the mass, but just think it, what then?
And are the Jews singled out b/c they've received alot of persecution from the church? IOW, in an attempt to make people realize to persecute them is stupid?
And are the Jews singled out b/c they've received alot of persecution from the church? IOW, in an attempt to make people realize to persecute them is stupid?
--Andy
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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emotional leper
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- Location: Hell. I'm Living in Hell.
As a pagan who's more than once been told by people that they'll pray for me (for various reasons, ranging from the fact that I'm a pagan living in sin who will never know Christ's love, to being physically ill or mentally sick), I have no problem with it, under the condition that the person praying is 'thinking good thoughts.' If they want something 'good' for me, even if I don't believe that it's 'good' for me, as long as they are doing it because they think that the praying is 'helpful' or 'good,' I welcome it. Like that scene in Eaters of the Dead where the Viking says to the Muslim, "I will pray to all our gods for you to have a safe journey home. Do not be offended," and the Muslim says, "On the contrary, I am in your debt! You are saying many more prayers for my well being that a Muslim would!" Or something to that effect. I don't have the book infront of me.
Now, someone forcibly trying to convert me to Christianity would be a no-no. And though it hasn't yet happened, if someone gets sufficiently up in my face about it, I will have no problem (in theory) teaching them how a polite society functions (though in practice I probably won't do anything.) The two times I've had cause to visit a facility that performed abortions, I noticed two kinds of protesters. Type A was nice, and genuinely concerned for the people visiting the clinic's spirtual well being, in a kind of parent-like way. But they were willing to let people make their own mistakes, and believed that god forgives all sins. The second time were the loud, angry, brimstone and hellfire Old Testament types, who seemed to preach more hate than actual love, and seemed more intent on judging than in saving people. I had no problem with the first type. But if I ever have to interact with the second, I'm willing to chance using a legal defense of provokation when I go on trial for aggravated assault.
And it's not just Christianity. I've had Jewish friends pray for me. One in particular praying for me in hopes that I would come back to Judaism, which I was raised in, though I was born a catholic. This led to an interesting discussion on whether I needed to convert at all, since I conform to 5 of the 7 Noahide laws, and was mistaken for a Jew on more than one occasional socially and conversationally (Apparently saying and meaning, "For what nation has a god like the Lord Our God of Israel" in a conversation about why Israel will never lose a war means you have to be Jewish.).
I think I rambled.
Summation: Praying for someone, as long as it's for their wellbeing, wishing good things for them, even if that person does not want said things, is not rude as I consider it. Praying for something bad to happen to someone, even if you think it's for their own good, is wrong, as I view it. No Mens Rea, No Foul. Of course, every time I've ever prayed to the Eumenides is, I freely admit, a 'wrong' deed. Atleast, part of me still feels so. The rest just sees it as the natural order.
Now, someone forcibly trying to convert me to Christianity would be a no-no. And though it hasn't yet happened, if someone gets sufficiently up in my face about it, I will have no problem (in theory) teaching them how a polite society functions (though in practice I probably won't do anything.) The two times I've had cause to visit a facility that performed abortions, I noticed two kinds of protesters. Type A was nice, and genuinely concerned for the people visiting the clinic's spirtual well being, in a kind of parent-like way. But they were willing to let people make their own mistakes, and believed that god forgives all sins. The second time were the loud, angry, brimstone and hellfire Old Testament types, who seemed to preach more hate than actual love, and seemed more intent on judging than in saving people. I had no problem with the first type. But if I ever have to interact with the second, I'm willing to chance using a legal defense of provokation when I go on trial for aggravated assault.
And it's not just Christianity. I've had Jewish friends pray for me. One in particular praying for me in hopes that I would come back to Judaism, which I was raised in, though I was born a catholic. This led to an interesting discussion on whether I needed to convert at all, since I conform to 5 of the 7 Noahide laws, and was mistaken for a Jew on more than one occasional socially and conversationally (Apparently saying and meaning, "For what nation has a god like the Lord Our God of Israel" in a conversation about why Israel will never lose a war means you have to be Jewish.).
I think I rambled.
Summation: Praying for someone, as long as it's for their wellbeing, wishing good things for them, even if that person does not want said things, is not rude as I consider it. Praying for something bad to happen to someone, even if you think it's for their own good, is wrong, as I view it. No Mens Rea, No Foul. Of course, every time I've ever prayed to the Eumenides is, I freely admit, a 'wrong' deed. Atleast, part of me still feels so. The rest just sees it as the natural order.
No it's not either, and I can't believe you'd attempt to draw a comparison between religion (which is always a choice) and sexual preference (which isn't).Lord Mhoram wrote:So you'd have no problem with praying for the "conversion" of a gay person to become straight? Because that's what this is akin to.
So you're overly sensitive. THe reason that there are so many different religious beliefs is because everone thinks they're right. If the prayer is offered in the spirit of genuinely wanting to help others (which in this case, it is) then it's an honor. If the Jews don't want to convert, that's their business, and that's OK. If a Jew (or Muslim, or Hindu) prayed for you to find salvation on their terms, assuming they're not following it up with a sword, what's the big deal?Lord Mhoram wrote:If I were a believing Christian, I would be very offended if a Jew prayed for me to convert to Judaism. It's arrogant.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
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Cail,
I am glad you see the distinction, but think about it: Anyone praying for the conversion of homosexual does not see that distinction. See the difference? The sentiment behind the prayers is exactly the same.No it's not either, and I can't believe you'd attempt to draw a comparison between religion (which is always a choice) and sexual preference (which isn't).
Exactly. Hence I said this prayer is arrogant and condescending.THe reason that there are so many different religious beliefs is because everone thinks they're right
Prove that. "Honor" is a subjective term anyway.If the prayer is offered in the spirit of genuinely wanting to help others (which in this case, it is) then it's an honor.
LM, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't understand the nature of prayer for someone. There is nothing arrogant nor condescending about praying for someone, regardless of their beliefs.
For instance, let's say that Fred is Jewish, and his brother dies. I tell him I'll pray for him and his family. Fred doesn't believe the same thing I believe, is it arrogant or offensive for me to pray for him?
Conversion isn't appreciably different. I'm still praying for someone's well-being, but it's for the well-being of their eternal soul. Doesn't really matter how they take it, what matters is the manner in which it's offered.
While I would vehemently disagree with a Catholic (or any Christian) praying for a gay person to convert to heterosexuality, if it was simply a misguided attempt to ray for their soul, then it's hard to fault. If it's a "damn dirty queers" prayer, then it's contrary to Christian principles in the first place, so it's not really an issue.
Bottom line LM, I find it unfortunate that you're so easily offended if people with different beliefs pray for you. I find that incredibly closed-minded, but that's certainly your right. If it makes you feel any better, I'll stop praying for you.
For instance, let's say that Fred is Jewish, and his brother dies. I tell him I'll pray for him and his family. Fred doesn't believe the same thing I believe, is it arrogant or offensive for me to pray for him?
Conversion isn't appreciably different. I'm still praying for someone's well-being, but it's for the well-being of their eternal soul. Doesn't really matter how they take it, what matters is the manner in which it's offered.
While I would vehemently disagree with a Catholic (or any Christian) praying for a gay person to convert to heterosexuality, if it was simply a misguided attempt to ray for their soul, then it's hard to fault. If it's a "damn dirty queers" prayer, then it's contrary to Christian principles in the first place, so it's not really an issue.
Bottom line LM, I find it unfortunate that you're so easily offended if people with different beliefs pray for you. I find that incredibly closed-minded, but that's certainly your right. If it makes you feel any better, I'll stop praying for you.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
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More so, because I'm not offended by your beliefs and practices.
Edit-I've said elsewhere that I believe all religions are fundamentally the same, with the differences being in the details. I also believe that everyone believes in something, whether they believe it (or admit it) or not.
Edit-I've said elsewhere that I believe all religions are fundamentally the same, with the differences being in the details. I also believe that everyone believes in something, whether they believe it (or admit it) or not.
Last edited by Cail on Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
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As a Christian, I can categorically say that is untrue.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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SoulBiter
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No.... you are being way to sensitive. If I pray that all the non-believers (who according to my religion will burn in hell if they dont convert) convert to (insert religion here), thats not arrogant.. its a part of my religion and its an attempt to save lost souls. Part of most religions has to do with converting the lost so their souls can be saved and is a significant part of those religions. So its not arrogant to pray for them... however it would be wrong to try to force them.Lord Mhoram wrote:Exactly. Hence I said this prayer is arrogant and condescending.THe reason that there are so many different religious beliefs is because everone thinks they're right
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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Lord Mhoram
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Nope.
It becomes arrogant when I treat you differently or try to force you to convert.
Edit-And I've never (and will never) refer to any other religion as "tainted".
It becomes arrogant when I treat you differently or try to force you to convert.
Edit-And I've never (and will never) refer to any other religion as "tainted".
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Lord Mhoram
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Lord Mhoram
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