Catholicism reverts (again)

Post by **Cail** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:11 pm

Again LM, I'm sorry you don't get it, but that's the way it is. The Jews are God's Chosen People. They're going to Heaven regardless of whether or not they accept Christ (that whole First Covenant thing) as their Savior. By praying for a Jew (or a Muslim, or a Hindu) to accept Christ as their savior is to want to share my salvation and my faith with them, it's not condemning them to anything, nor is it passing judgment on them.

It may surprise you that I pray for everyone, and I mean everyone. You, Syl, Esmer, Av, Malik, George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Hell, even my ex-wife. And not one of those prayers is for a good old-fashioned smiting. I'm a Christian, that's what we do. I don't give a shit what you believe, it's not my business. But I do want the world to be a happier, nicer place, and I don't wish eternal fire and damnation on anyone (including my ex-wife). If I didn't pray for everyone, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

That's my faith, that's what I believe, that's who I am.

Post by **DukkhaWaynhim** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:22 pm

I think this conversation is Tanking.

LM, your comments bespeak a remarkable intolerance of religion in general - conversion is a touchy subject to be sure, since it almost always involves a soul sales pitch to someone that may not bein the market for one, or think theirs is just fine. But being offended by someone praying in their own religion for your soul - I can't think of anything more harmless... unless their prayers are answered, the heavens split open, and you are compelled by a shaft of smiting light to convert against thy will... well, erm, that's just ridiculous.

Like has been said already, it's all about the intent of the one who offers up the prayer. The fact that someone thinks about you enough to offer up that prayer - that's spiritual love, man, no matter what religious branding [assuming they aren't just meeting their fundy quotas, that is]

That's like refusing a cookie by saying, "No thanks. I don't eat things baked with love."

dw

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:23 pm

Cail,

nor is it passing judgment on them.

Yes, it is. You are saying that your faith is the way to salvation. Or at least the ideal way. Tacitly or explicitly, depending on what kind of Christian you are, you are making a judgment: In some fundamental way, my faith is better than yours. That is a very distinct and concrete value judgment.

edited to fix quote

Dukkha,

I'm just taking this prayer and examining its logical outcome: That one faith is better than another. That is to me condescending. Call me "sensitive" or "intolerant," but that is the only logical conclusion I can come up with.

Post by **Cail** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:29 pm

If you say so LM. I believe my beliefs are the way to my salvation, and I pray for others to have that salvation as well. 17,000+ posts, and you'll not find a single one in which I belittle anyone else's religious beliefs.

It's ironic that the Catholic is preaching tolerance and acceptance and the atheist (or agnostic, or whatever your beliefs are) is preaching hatred and exclusion. Must everything be a conflict? My faith is better for me, it would be selfish of me to not want to share it.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:32 pm

I'm preaching hatred? Really? I'm not the one praying for others because their faiths are wrong. Anyway, call it "sharing" (what was it you said recently about euphemisms?) if you want, but the sentiment of judgment is still present.

Post by **Cail** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:42 pm

Yes LM, you are. You're attempting to redefine my beliefs to fit yours.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:47 pm

I don't see that as a hatred, but alright. My beliefs would be to not pray for anyone's conversion, period. My perception of your prayers has not been sufficiently disputed. Everyone's just saying I am being too sensitive, or intolerant, or even hateful. When you pray that someone convert, you are saying that their faith is somehow lacking. That's a judgment.

Post by **Cail** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:52 pm

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

I suppose that every offered gift or help is a judgment as well.

Post by **DukkhaWaynhim** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:54 pm

Lord Mhoram wrote:I'm just taking this prayer and examining its logical outcome: That one faith is better than another. That is to me condescending. Call me "sensitive" or "intolerant," but that is the only logical conclusion I can come up with.

But the conclusion of condescension isn't really a logical response, it's emotional - it involves you taking offense at someone else's action. The prayer itself you seem to believe either has no spiritual value or is offered as a slight instead of as a simple prayer for your enlightenment? Asking for someone else to see the light does imply a value judgment, but if properly prayed, at no point is their POV being forced on you... in fact, unless you are told of the prayer, you won't even know you were prayed about. Besides, what does it matter to you, especially if you don't even think prayer works? If we go glass chin to glass chin, isn't this just couched derision for the others who do think that prayer works?

dw

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:55 pm

Cail,

If I offer you a new car, it's probably because I think there's something wrong with your old one, at least in comparison to the new one I'm giving you. There'd probably be no hard feelings over the offering of that gift, but religion is a very touchy subject.

Dukkha,

True, the condescension part of my argument is emotional - but the act of judgment present in the prayer is purely logical. I don't care about the prayer's spiritual value, I care about what praying for conversion says about the other religion's spiritual value. The conclusion of a prayer for conversion is that the person being converted adheres to a deficient faith.

Post by **Cail** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:57 pm

It seems you're quite invested in being offended by the goodwill of others.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:58 pm

That's about the response I was expecting, Cail. Even though I said there'd be no hard feelings in the exchange.

Post by **balon!** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:04 pm

I see what LM is saying. In my own eyes, the topic of religion is the one thing that cannot be proven one way or the other. Which is why all religions are based on faith, you have the believe that its correct, there isnt any provable evidence.

So when you get one person who feels that not only are they correct (which I have no problem with) who is ALSO sure that you are uncorrect (again, no problem with that) and pray to convert the person to said "correct" religion, I see that last part as arrogant. As if the person not only knew what was best for them, but what was best for the person who "needed to be converted."

Post by **danlo** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:07 pm

Guns wrote:its a part of my religion and its an attempt to save lost souls.

Who's to say my soul is lost? What if it's not? Doesn't that sound a little presumptuous?

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:07 pm

Exactly, Balon. Exactly, danlo.

Post by **Marv** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:27 pm

Which is why all religions are based on faith, you have the believe that its correct, there isnt any provable evidence.

A religous person might describe their life experiences as being evidence enough for them.

If I was of the UNSHAKABLE belief that anyone who doesn't believe what I believe (

) was going to spend the rest of eternity burning in hell I might pray to god that those people see the error of their ways. I can't see how that's any more arrogant than having absolute belief in anything. These people believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, so why dress it up and pretend any different.

Post by **balon!** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:32 pm

Marvin wrote: A religous person might describe their life experiences as being evidence enough for them.

Should have been more clear. I meant that where one piece of evidence might be accepted by one person, it would be unaccepted by another. There isnt any religion that is proveable to everyone.

Marvin wrote: If I was of the UNSHAKABLE belief that anyone who doesn't believe in what I believe in ( ) was going to spend the rest of eternity burning in hell I might pray to god that those people see the error of their ways. I can't see how that's any more arrogant than having absolute belief in anything..

I see what you mean. Although that opens a whole opther case of worms about WHY anyone should burn for etenity for not believing... but we'll save that for later.

I suppose thatin my mind they can be both well intentioned AND arrogant at the same time. The good intentions because they truly DO believe that they are saving the person from eternal pain, but also arrogant because they cannot accept the idea that they MIGHT be wrong, and should just let the other person be. Let them accept their own consequences of their actions.

Marvin wrote:These people believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, so why dress it up and pretend any different.

Can you elaborate? Not sure what you meant by that.

Post by **Marv** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:57 pm

Balon wrote:
Marvin wrote:These people believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, so why dress it up and pretend any different.
Can you elaborate? Not sure what you meant by that.

Well, from what I understand belief in a religion is absolute. There isn't any room for doubt. To then expect those people to not try and convince others, through whatever means(especially concerning something as harmless as prayer), of the validity of their beliefs seems weird. Especially when believers think the consequence of you not converting is eternal damnation.

That's not even thinking about the possibility that any individual not praying to save the souls of others could well see themselves spending a stretch in hell...or purgatory...I dunno.

Post by **Cail** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:59 pm

You guys must be a barrel of laughs around gift-giving holidays.....

If you don't believe in God, what difference does it make to you that I'm praying for you, and why do you automatically ascribe negative characteristics to that?

Edit-The answer, I think, is that your unbelief is so important to you that you simply cannot tolerate the fact that other people believe in God and have faith. You then become guilty of the same intolerance that you accuse people of faith of having.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:01 pm

It's an affront to me that you would find my faith life lacking or insufficient in some way.

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Catholicism reverts (again)