On Vain

[balon!]

If Vain's purpose was to be combined with an Elohim, he obviosuly couldn't do it himself.

TC was his conduit to a source of Earthpower, and the ring the power source, so Vain attacked the Ur-Viles in protection of TC, his catalyst.

[IrrationalSanity]

Let's not forget all of the things that the party did on their quest for the One Tree:

1. Acquired Findail
2. Freed Nom
3. Got rid of a Croyel
4. Set a new Guardian
5. Triggered a minor transformation in Vain (his wooden arm, which probably provided a pattern for Linden to work from in her transformation)
6. Introduced Cail to the Merewives
(and probably more things that aren't just popping into my head)

None of these things would have occurred had Covenant known of Vain's purpose, as he was so fixated on making a new staff, he probably would have blasted Vain back into Ur-Vile dust trying to transform him, thus totally wasting a perfectly good demondim spawn.

[Relayer]

6. Introduced Cail to the Merewives

They could've met more compatible partners if they'd used EarthPowerMatch.com...

None of these things would have occurred had Covenant known of Vain's purpose, as he was so fixated on making a new staff, he probably would have blasted Vain back into Ur-Vile dust trying to transform him, thus totally wasting a perfectly good demondim spawn.

A good point. I assume the ur-viles and Dead knew that an Elohim was necessary too. It was also very convenient that the Giants suggested they take TC to the Elohim. If they'd gone somewhere else, would Findail have appeared anyway? I would think so.

[Cail]

Exactly. One would assume that with the.....Omniscience of the Elohim, that Findail would've showed up regardless.

Dammit, now I'm gonna have to reread TOT, because I seem to remember that Findail was completely opposed to a new Staff being created. Or was he just bent that the Sun-Sage and the Ring-Bearer weren't the same person. Crap.

EarthPowerMatch.com

Classic.


"Hot-blooded Haruchai that requires little sleep seeking firm-loined mate. Stamina a must."

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Urviles vain attacked had been deliberately warped by the Sunbane by Lord Foul. The group deduced this because the Urviles were too lorewise to accidentally expose themselves to the Sunbane. Furthermore they surmised that it was as punishement for creating Vain in the first place.

Vain's angry reaction to them could be precautionarry programming on the Urvile's part or the simple fact that they could track him and the group (especially the Sun-sage whom he had to protect) would not be safe until they were dead.

[Relayer]

"Hot-blooded Haruchai that requires little sleep seeking firm-loined mate. Stamina a must."

"... absolutely faithful. However, if he ever can't completely deliver the goods, may suddenly withdraw from committment."

[Cail]

"Hot-blooded Haruchai that requires little sleep seeking firm-loined mate. Stamina a must."

"... absolutely faithful. However, if he ever can't completely deliver the goods, may suddenly withdraw from committment."

Good stuff!

[The Dark Overlord]

I think Baradakas has nailed it and answered Fletch's and Guest's misgivings. I had forgotten that the urviles that Vain fought were sunbane warped.

[Dawngreeter]

Wow Skyweir - excellent alternate thoughts regarding The Pure One. In all the books if there ever was a pure one, it would be Vain. Why couldn't he be the one? To me the only thing that made SF pure was Hotash Slay but the below quote gives far more requirements for the pure one.

it is said that when the time is ready, a young will be birthed without flaw - a pure offspring impervious to the Maker and his making - unafraid. It is said theat this pure one will come bearing tokens of power to the Make's home. It is said that he will redeem the jheherrin if they prove -if he finds them worthy - that he will win from the Maker their release from fear and mud.

it is said that when the time is ready, a young will be birthed without flaw

Does that mean that an already existing entity, being young, will be reborn? Or does that mean a new creation?

- a pure offspring impervious to the Maker and his making - unafraid.

Well Vain is certainly unafraid and we've seen some of the scope of his invulnerability. SF was certainly not a 'pure offspring' & not impervious.

It is said that this pure one will come bearing tokens of power to the Make's home.

I think that works for both SF & Vain. SF bearing TC, Vain bearing TC, LA, Elohim.

It is said that he will redeem the jheherrin if they prove -if he finds them worthy - that he will win from the Maker their release from fear and mud.

If he finds them worthy?! Huh?

In any case, I'm kinda buying into Skyweir's theory that Vain is the pure one. Vain became the new staff of law which likely restored even these mud people. Even if we a hint of what these 'tokens of power' were, we could figure out who the real Pure One was. I suppose it's possible too that The Pure One hasn't even appeared yet in the stories. Would The Pure One please step forward!?

[wayfriend]

How could Vain be the Pure One when he didn't appear until millennia after the jeherrin were freed?

[Dawngreeter]

How could Vain be the Pure One when he didn't appear until millennia after the jeherrin were freed?

The assumption here is that they were freed. I guess it was never mentioned but assumed by most that TC & SF won from the Maker their release from fear and mud. But what if the jheherrin were never released after Foul's disappearance and were still in bondage. Years later, Vain / nSoL / LA would be the only tool left to do such a deep cleansing and renewal of land, species and corruption. Maybe?

[Relayer]

Possible, but IIRC the jheherrin were already free when encounted in TWL.

I've always thought that the Pure One is Covenant, not Foamfollower. TC just said that to the jheherrin because he couldn't believe that he could be Pure or be a savior.

[wayfriend]

Ah, but if Covenant were pure there would be no story.

[Relayer]

Ah, but if Covenant were pure there would be no story.

LOL. Nor would there by ANY Donaldson stories...

I didn't mean that Covenant IS pure, I meant that in the jheherrin legend, he is the one they were referring to / waiting for.

[stormrider]

it is said that when the time is ready, a young will be birthed without flaw

Does that mean that an already existing entity, being young, will be reborn? Or does that mean a new creation?

This part of the legend kind of makes me lean toward Vain. How old is Foamfollower, anyway? I know he's not old for a giant, but is he young enough to fit this description?

It is said that he will redeem the jheherrin if they prove -if he finds them worthy - that he will win from the Maker their release from fear and mud.

If he finds them worthy?! Huh?

This is the main reason I'm having trouble with the Vain/Pure One theory. In TPTP, I think Covenant said something along the lines of, "You're worthy, but I'm not the Pure One." So presumably, SF agrees that they're worthy. Vain never even comes into contact with the jheherrin (because he doesn't exist yet). I don't understand when he would have had time to make the assessment that the jheherrin were worthy. I kind of like the idea that maybe the sur-jheherrin only think they're free when they encounter the company in TWL. Then again, the legend says that the Pure One will free them from mud and "fear," and by this point, they clearly aren't afraid anymore, since they're willing to attack the Skest.

I'm still leaning toward Foamfollower. Oh, and also -- technically, Vain was a token given to TC by the giant. If you look at it that way, no matter what Vain did/does (even if he ultimately does the "redeeming"), it still goes back to SF.

[IrrationalSanity]

A few quick points:

The nice little mud folks we run into in 2nd Chronicles call themselves the Sur-jheherrin*. This in honor of their belief in having been redeemed by the Pure One, triggered by the sign of their own ability to give birth.**

They call the Giants of the Search "People of the Pure One"

- Woody -

* Yes, yet another blinking prefix to go with ur-Lord and na-Morham.

** As made creatures, it is interesting that they can suddenly reproduce themselves through something resembling "natural" means. I seem to recall the last time a people of the Land interpreted newly found fertility as an answer to prophecy/legend, its ultimate fulfilment didn't exactly go so well...

[Angoid]

Hmmmm ..... I've just read this entire thread, and as it was ages ago since I last read the 2nd Chronicles, I'd forgotten a lot of it. I'm currently re-reading TWL....

But one thing I do remember (which has been referenced) is that when SF gave Vain to TC, he said that Vain may be commanded only once. TC used this command up.

I've always wondered what would have happened had this command never been used up before he became the new SoL (together with Findail) ... would it have been possible to command something using the SoL once only that would have brought some healing to the Land?

I guess if the answer to that was Yes, it would again make for an abruptly ended story (unless the command was foolish, rather like Elena's use of the EarthBlood)......

[Relayer]

I think the command related to Vain himself, not to the Staff which he became. If it did, then since TC used up the one command, nobody could have done anything w/ the Staff.

[drew]

I always interpreted TC's one command as showing his own weakness.

TC can't really do much for himself...not until the end of the First Chrons did he really do anything for himself...he just made bargins and got other people to do thigns for him.

Now he has a superbeing in his possesion...and he wastes his 'wish' the first opportunaty he can....and because of that; he ended up being far too free with his white gold throughout the rest of the story;

"Necro(whatever) Vain; save Hergrom from the Sandgorgan" May have been a beter use, then getting him away from some burned up Stowndown.
-Or helping witht he banefire; destroying Gibbon (and saving Horniscarve at the same time)...stuff like that.