Virtues & Vices

[Lord Mhoram]

In what instance would aggression be virtuous?

[Cail]

OK, I see the distinction you're making.

[Plissken]

In what instance would aggression be virtuous?

In any situation where passivity would be un-virtuous. The curse of the Fisher King comes to mind.

[Cail]

Like stopping a mugging.

[The Laughing Man]

I'm not saying you can't do it, or that anyone is wrong here, but I think were mixing motivations with actions here? Aggression and assertion are primarily physically oriented? Confrontational? Maybe it's virtue that inspires us to be aggressive or assertive, but are those actions virtuous in and of themselves?

[Plissken]

Like stopping a mugging.

Also a good example.

My point is, virtue is subjective. Our society has made vices out certain virtues, and virtues out of other vices. It's not that these changes are necessarily wrong (although the holes in our current values could frequently have an entire convoy driven through them), but that what society declares virtuous is based on the needs of our society - not on some hard and fast rule.

We may wish for a previous incarnation of virtue - and usually do, when waxing nostalgic about the "Good Old Days" - but virtue is almost always dictated by context.

EDIT: I think you've got it backwards in this case, Es. You're right in that various virtues and vices may lead to various decisions, but Aggression is still the motivating virtue.

(In fact, just go ahead and replace the various forms of Aggression I've used in my last few posts with the equivalent forms of Motivation, if it makes everyone feel better.)

[Lord Mhoram]

American society has made aggression into a vice? Are you kidding me?

[Plissken]

Absolutely. Unless it's in some unsavory circumstance, Aggression has as many negative connotations for most people as American Society has for you.

[Lord Mhoram]

So something like Grand Theft Auto, a video game that glorifies shooting cops and car-jacking, is just an isolated anomaly?

[The Laughing Man]

The four cardinal (hinge) virtues are Justice, Courage, Wisdom, and Moderation. These were enumerated by the Greek philosophers. The three supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope and (unselfish) Love are part of the Christian tradition. Both the natural and supernatural virtues depend on a person's understanding that truth can be discovered. Modernist views are at odds with this idea.

Aggression and assertion are descriptive terms of actions, not descriptions of moral and ethical values Pliss. If aggression were a virtue then passivity would be a vice, neither of which do I believe are virtuous in nature, but merely inspired by virtuous influence.

[Plissken]

So something like Grand Theft Auto, a video game that glorifies shooting cops and car-jacking, is just an isolated anomaly?

No, it's an outlet. Hell, I slay the Demons of Terror and Destruction (and oh, so many of their minions!) on almost a daily basis - do you think that stems from an anomaly or from a societally suppressed need?

[Lord Mhoram]

America is not a puritanical culture, Plissken. Grand Theft Auto and its ilk are reflections of a culture, not a backlash against it. There's a reason that gun-related deaths are absurdly high in the US in comparison to other industrialized countries (and no, the reason is not video games ). And I hate to bring Iraq into yet another discussion, but it is a sad reflection on our culture that preemption was sold to us so easily.

[Prebe]

When a nipple equals a decapitation in movie rating, I'd say it's a puritanical culture

[Plissken]

We're talking about entertainment, LM. GTA is just as much an outlet for the culture as Bread n' Circuses were for the Romans.

[emotional leper]

When a nipple equals a decapitation in movie rating, I'd say it's a puritanical culture

Hear, hear!... or... here... here... i... don't know...

Puritanical culture is the reason that it's okay for a child to go see a movie like Hostel with a parent, but could never see a movie that actually included sexual content. I think the rise in violence in our culture is directly related to the amount of sexual represion. If you want a standing army, you need a lot of men who aren't getting any, can't get any, and have no hopes of ever seeing any. You can drag entire populations around by the sexual forces.

Also, think of how much violence in movies is sexual in over or undertones. Pretty girls being murdered/tortured. You think as many people would watch those movies if it was some ugly, fat guy with leprosy nodules all over his face? People want sexuality, and they will get it in whatever form it is available to them.

[[Syl]]

Just a minor point, but Hostel had a lot of sexual content.

[emotional leper]

Just a minor point, but Hostel had a lot of sexual content.

I must have forgotten about that between holding back vomit due to the violence. I apologise.

[[Syl]]

Not worth apologizing for. Like I said, a minor point.

Though it does bring up the question of how much sex and violence are linked in (at least) American culture. 70s and 80s horror movies were largely morality plays about the perils of teenage sex.

[emotional leper]

Not worth apologizing for. Like I said, a minor point.

Though it does bring up the question of how much sex and violence are linked in (at least) American culture. 70s and 80s horror movies were largely morality plays about the perils of teenage sex.

Don't have sex, kiddies, or a spear-wielding maniac mourning his mother will kill you!

[Lord Mhoram]

Plissken,

We're talking about entertainment, LM.

Really? You said that American culture has made aggression into a vice, and I gave Grand Theft Auto as an example of a reflection of a culture that I think glorifies aggression. I gave some real-life examples. Rome is a poor counterexample for you to use, considering how militaristic they were.