Virtues & Vices

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Post by emotional leper »

Lord Mhoram wrote:I agree. And what better way to ingrain respect for life than to make weaponry that takes life away as difficult to acquire as possible?
By showing the effects of said weapon. When I was young, I didn't really understand what a gun did to a living thing until I went hunting once. After that, I've never really had the urge to shoot a gun again. Own one, yes. I would like to have a nice, functional replica of the Angel Arms Colt .45 Long from Trigun.

And as Avatar pointed out with Switzerland: Near total gun ownership (which, if I recall correctly, is due to the fact that every adult is in the Swiss Militia, or maybe the army. I can't remember at the moment.)

The problem, I think, with my generation and gun violence, is so many people have become desensitised to the effects of violence, or come to idealise violence (in re: Gangster Culture.) I was an army brat, was brought up to believe that Violence is a shameful last resort, and when it comes to violence, to not kill unless you absolutely have to (Of course, my grandpa also told me, "When in doubt, empty the magazine.")

Personally, if we're going to force mandatory laws and educations on people, I think that all public school children should be required to go through a gun safety course. Or that parents should be required to put their children through such a course. I remember when I took Driver's Ed, the thing that stuck with me the most wasn't the road test, or the written, or the discussion and questions. It was the 6 something hours I spent in a room with about 10 other 16 to 18 year olds looking at the most gruesome pictures of traffic fatalities you can imagine. The one in particular that haunts me is someone, one can't tell if it's a cop or an emt, or who exactly, literally scraping up someone's brain off the road. I've never been in a collision that I was at fault for.

The Gun Education and Violence problem, I think, is neatly mirrored by the Teen Pregnancy/Sex Education problem. Teenagers are going to have sex. You cannot stop them from doing it. You just can't. You can't keep them locked up and under strict surveillance 24/7/52. So of course, when you don't give them access to sex education on how to prevent pregancy, or on STDs and how to prevent infection, or access to birth control methods, of course they're going to get pregnant. The number of friends I had growing up who now have children, who went to schools were sex education was not taught is almost 100%. I, on the other hand, who did have sex ed, and whose parents did, at length, give 'the talk,' and who, though I never had sex till I was 19, and since I was about 14 carried on me, at all times, atleast one condom, have never even had to take a girl to the clinic for an abortion that was mine, nor had to worry about an STD.

Likewise, Children who are not taught about guns, how to respect the weapon, and what it can and will do if you do not pay attention for even a moment, who are not taught how to safely handle them, who are not taught when you can and when you cannot aim it at a living thing, will of course, if guns are in the house, find them and kill/maim someone/themself, or will aquire guns, if they have no respect for life, and use them.

It's all about education. Sadly, in modern America, parent's don't want to have to raise their children. They want the State, and the Tele, and the Video Games to do it for them. And then they're shocked with their kids are either stupid, or not 'well behaved.'

I'm pretty sure that the courts have ruled in atleast narrow scope for specific purposes that Reproduction is not a right. I wish they'd expand it.
Last edited by emotional leper on Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prebe »

Ballon wrote:Mostly, because I ALSO remember that WE were the ones who grew up on the Smurfs and David the Gnome.
That's where it starts you know. In a land of sexually deprived blue creatures, some with sharp farming implements, where the only (heterosexual) relation possible is with ONE female.

I have often cried myself to sleep over Smurfettes cruel and unusual fate.
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Post by Cail »

Are you kidding?!? Smurfette offed the rest of the Smurf females. She's a cruel, murderous, slut.
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Post by Prebe »

LOL!

Should trust you (or Plissken) to come up with just about the only possible misogynous conspiration theory regarding smurfs!!!!!!
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Post by [Syl] »

Nah, Gargamel just had some serious issues. He made Smurfette as a weapon against the smurfs. What sick bastard looks at a peaceful, asexual society and says, "How can I mess this up? Oh yeah, let's give 'em a hot chick." It would've been easier and perhaps less cruel to give them crack.
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Post by Plissken »

Lord Mhoram wrote:
Cail wrote:You say that GTA is a reflection of society (our gun laws), but you don't address the obvious inconsistency with my above point.
But you aren't addressing my point, which is that a society that has lax gun laws and values the gung-ho attitude (which America undoubtedly does) will invariably produce GTA-esque material.
Again, point me to something in society that says it's OK to beat people up, steal their car, and shoot up stuff, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.
I'm not saying it's okay to do it in America. We just shoot people a lot more often here than they do in other industrialized countries. They have stricter gun laws. We have violence in our entertainment. There's no correlation there?
No, there's not. First off, our entertainment is sold worldwide, and it is produced worldwide. There are video games and movies coming from countries with far more restrictive gun laws than ours that make GTA look like a fairy tale, (actually, have you ever actually read the Bros. Grimm? Another obvious point is that violence and gore in entertainment actually predates both the gun and America.) and those same folks are consuming GTA just as wholeheartedly as we are.

Look, if you want to re-hash gun control, we can take that back to the 'Tank. I'll even go a ways down the "Fewer Guns = Fewer Gun-Deaths" road with you. But you've got to separate your issues. Even with all the guns we've got here, the police are the ones handling criminals - not hordes of American 'tweens under the influence of the ever-popular Vigilante story lines in popular entertainment.
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Post by Prebe »

Nation specific or not, I think that one of the most important problems in both games and movies is that violence is often depicted as being of no (or at least disproportionate) consequence. If you ask (anonymously of course) a mugger that stepped on someones head whether or not he intended to kill his victim I am sure that in 9 out of 10 cases the answer would be no.

I think that putting violent offenders face to face with real life consequences of violence (in forensic departments and morgues) would have a considerable effect on recidivism. Of course this treatment would have little if any effect on the true sociopath.
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Post by Plissken »

Oh, I'd love to see a movie where the hero's every scrape, bruise, and broken bone was a realistic part of the plot. I'd like to see a modern Dirty Harry going to the post-carnage funerals of innocent by-standers. (I'm not being sarcastic. I think it would make for a damned good movie.)

And I've always preferred the Norse sagas to the various mythos that trundles everyone off to their Happy Places at the end.

But that's not the discussion. I'm arguing that these movies (and myths) act as a steam valve for the drives we suppress, in order to maintain the society we've built. They give us a chance to face the (irrational or not) fears we have in a (irrationally consequence-free or not) safe way.

Ask any Cold War baby of a certain age how it felt to see Red Dawn in the theater. Watching it now, it is certainly an irrational, sometimes downright silly movie.

But back then...
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Post by Prebe »

Plissken wrote:But that's not the discussion.
I know, but I thought it would be interesting to take it that way
I'm arguing that these movies (and myths) act as a steam valve for the drives we suppress, in order to maintain the society we've built. They give us a chance to face the (irrational or not) fears we have in a (irrationally consequence-free or not) safe way.
That was perhaps their initial main function. However, I submit that entertainment has gone from merely entertaining to forming attitudes, reaction patterns and moral standards. If not for any other reason, volume alone would do the trick.
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Post by Cail »

Plissken wrote:Ask any Cold War baby of a certain age how it felt to see Red Dawn in the theater. Watching it now, it is certainly an irrational, sometimes downright silly movie.

But back then...
Absolutely, and good luck trying to explain it to someone too young to remember.
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Plissken »

Prebe wrote:
Plissken wrote:But that's not the discussion.
I know, but I thought it would be interesting to take it that way
I'm arguing that these movies (and myths) act as a steam valve for the drives we suppress, in order to maintain the society we've built. They give us a chance to face the (irrational or not) fears we have in a (irrationally consequence-free or not) safe way.
That was perhaps their initial main function. However, I submit that entertainment has gone from merely entertaining to forming attitudes, reaction patterns and moral standards. If not for any other reason, volume alone would do the trick.
Phhhhbt! First of all, I just caught that "Or Plissken!" in the Smurf Conspiracy bit.

So, you're going to have to back that submission up - and just 'cause I'm now feeling pissy, it's going to have to be with harder data than the kind that almost put EC comics out of business.

(You remember -- "The evil influence of comic books is certainly one of the main causes of youth membership in gangs, drug abuse, violence, illicit sex...")
Seduction of the Innocent is a book by Dr. Fredric Wertham, published in 1954, that warned that comic books were a bad form of popular literature and a serious cause of juvenile delinquency. The book was a minor bestseller that created alarm in parents and galvanized them to campaign for censorship. At the same time, a U.S. Congressional inquiry was launched into the comic book industry, and the Comics Code Authority was voluntarily established by publishers to self-censor their titles.

Seduction of the Innocent cited overt or covert depictions of violence, sex, drug use, and other adult fare within "crime comics"—a term Wertham used to describe not only the popular gangster/murder-oriented titles of the time, but superhero and horror comics as well. The book asserted, largely based on undocumented anecdotes, that reading this material encouraged similar behavior in children.

Comics, especially the crime/horror titles pioneered by EC, were not lacking in gruesome images; Wertham reproduced these extensively, pointing out what he saw as recurring morbid themes such as "injury to the eye". Many of his other conjectures, particularly about hidden sexual themes (e.g. images of female nudity concealed in drawings of muscles and tree bark, or Batman and Robin as homosexual lovers), were met with derision within the comics industry. (Wertham's claim that Wonder Woman had a bondage subtext was somewhat better documented, as her creator William Moulton Marston had admitted as much; however, Wertham also claimed Wonder Woman's strength and independence made her a lesbian.)
EDIT: It will also have to be stronger than the evidence provided at this trial:
Subliminal message trial

In summer 1990, the band was involved in a civil action that alleged they were responsible for the suicide attempts in 1985 of 20-year old James Vance and 19-year old Ray Belknap in Reno, Nevada, USA.[8] On December 23, 1985 Vance and Belknap got intoxicated then went to a playground at a Lutheran church in Reno. Belknap shot a 12 gauge shotgun under his chin dying instantly, and Vance followed, but survived with a severely disfigured face. He died approximately three years later due to the effect of his painkillers.[9]

The boys' parents and their legal team alleged that a subliminal message of "do it" had been included in the song "Better By You, Better Than Me" from the Stained Class album (actually a cover of a Spooky Tooth number), and that the command triggered the suicide attempt.[8] The suit was eventually dismissed on its merits, as the band had pointed out that if you were to play any song backwards and tell someone there was a message, it'll sound as though there actually is.[8] One of the defense witnesses, Dr Timothy E. Moore, wrote an article for Skeptical Inquirer chronicling the trial.[8]

The trial was covered in the 1991 documentary Dream Deceivers: The Story Behind James Vance Vs. Judas Priest. In the documentary Halford commented that if they wanted to insert subliminal commands in their music, killing their fans would be counterproductive, and they would prefer to insert the command "Buy more of our records". Regarding the prosecution's assertions Halford pointed out that "do it" had no direct message, commenting "Well...do what? Mow the lawn? Have a drink? Watch some television? Wh-wha...do what?"

In popular culture comedian Bill Hicks used a similar notion in one of his stand-up routines, asking "What musician wants his audience dead?" He further performed an apocryphal sketch in a British accent mimicking Judas Priest being "fucking sick of [their immense wealth, power, and fame]" and coming up with the subliminal message as a solution to their problems. Also comedian Denis Leary also commented on the trial on his album No Cure For Cancer, saying that heavy metal bands should put more subliminal messages in their records: "Kill the band, kill your parents, then kill yourself".

Jay Leno also mocked the Judas Priest trial, in a somewhat milder form than the comics above-referenced, by saying that Judas Priest forward, sings about cannibalism and devil worship...."So what's it gonna say backwards that it doesn't say forwards? 'Go to church with your family?'"
...Anyone else see a pattern here?
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Post by Plissken »

Influences on our attitudes can (and do) come from any (and every) where:

Why, many of my more admirable values and attitudes were directly influenced by this one book, where, one time, this entire race of pretty, magical, fairie-like light-thingies were wiped out just to further depress this minor-raping leper-guy!
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Plissken,
No, there's not. First off, our entertainment is sold worldwide, and it is produced worldwide.
And this proves what, exactly? We've created and exported McDonald's worldwide. Does the world have an obesity problem as grave as ours as a result?

Look, I think you think I am taking the Hillary line on video games - that they cause violence. I'm not. I think that a culture that legally makes weaponry more available to people will invariably make violence attractive in its media. The intensity of it now (read: GTA, et al.) reflects the current atmosphere in Western culture - i.e., the "decadence" al-Qaeda rails on about.

Cail,
Absolutely, and good luck trying to explain it to someone too young to remember.
Was that necessary?
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Post by Cail »

Lord Mhoram wrote:
No, there's not. First off, our entertainment is sold worldwide, and it is produced worldwide.
And this proves what, exactly? We've created and exported McDonald's worldwide. Does the world have an obesity problem as grave as ours as a result?

Look, I think you think I am taking the Hillary line on video games - that they cause violence. I'm not. I think that a culture that legally makes weaponry more available to people will invariably make violence attractive in its media. The intensity of it now (read: GTA, et al.) reflects the current atmosphere in Western culture - i.e., the "decadence" al-Qaeda rails on about.
Then show some sort of causal link, and address what I said upthread. Why is it that gun laws are stricter now than they were 50 years ago, yet there's far more violence in society?

Lord Mhoram wrote:
Absolutely, and good luck trying to explain it to someone too young to remember.
Was that necessary?
Yes, because I work with a bunch of 20-somethings and deal with it all the time.

Hate to break your heart, but everything I post isn't about you.
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,

I did address it upthread. I said I don't know the reason for the inconsistency that you pointed out, but what I do know is that countries with stricter gun laws today have significantly lower death rates in terms of gun-related deaths than we do. And I know that that rise in gun-related deaths here correlates with an increasingly violent entertainment industry.
Hate to break your heart, but everything I post isn't about you.
Forgive me for thinking that something you posted in a thread where I am participating, when you quoted a series of posts in reply to me, might be about me.
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Post by Cail »

Lord Mhoram wrote:I did address it upthread. I said I don't know the reason for the inconsistency that you pointed out, but what I do know is that countries with stricter gun laws today have significantly lower death rates in terms of gun-related deaths than we do. And I know that that rise in gun-related deaths here correlates with an increasingly violent entertainment industry.
No, you didn't address it, you gave your opinion.

There are so many factors in play here, there's no way you can make the leap from gun laws to violent video games and other entertainment. Games like GTA provide a fantasy outlet to our base desires, but have you ever heard of a copycat crime? There's a HUGE segment of the entertainment industry devoted to vigilante justice. How many cases of that do you actually see?

Die Hard, GTA, and Hostel are all fantasies, and other than desensitizing people to pretend violence, are relatively harmless.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail,
No, you didn't address it, you gave your opinion.
I showed you the statistics. You gave your counterpoint, and I tried to answer it. Here's something non-opinionated: Western nations with stricter gun control laws have far lower rates of gun-related deaths than the US, a country with lax gun control laws. What other factors do you think are at play in terms of the entertainment industry? There are "so many," perhaps you could list a few. I am sure there are more, but what I do not think is a coincidence is this rise in gun-related deaths and a correlation with a more violent entertainment industry.

edit: and since when is "I don't know" an opinion? Like I said, I think the inconsistency you point out is a fairly good one. Have you got statistics about gun-related deaths in the US 50+ years ago to back it up, though?
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Post by Cail »

You showed statistics on gun-related deaths. You have not provided anything other than your opinion linking gun laws and violent video games (that violent video games are the result of our gun laws). It's no secret you're not a fan of gun ownership. That's your right, but it doesn't make this about it.

Other factors?

-A climate of fear
-Repressed masculinity in an increasingly matriarchal society
-Sensationalism in the news
-An overwhelming sense of malaise since the end of the Cold War
-The stunning advances in technology which allow near-lifelike special effects and computer graphics
-A cultural affinity to the lone hero who overcomes tremendous odds
-A cultural violence fetish
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail wrote:A cultural violence fetish
This is probably the most important and legitimate one you've got on this list. But that is a symptom, not a cause. What I am trying to find is the cause of that fetish. You don't think it has anything to do with readily available weaponry and a culture that embraces that availability? The creation of the Second Amendment is one of the proudest moments in our nation's history to a lot of Americans. I think there has to be a connection. The other reasons you listed, among others I'm sure, are probably the reason this dramatic increase in violence in the media and in real life is happening now, but it wouldn't be happening at all if it weren't for the Second Amendment and its ramifications.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

By the way, why is this in the Close? This is a political debate I think.
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