The Oath of Peace

[danlo]

"Stagnation", yes Tony, and this helps support my kooky theory about Foul possibly having a hand in the formation of the OoP-look again at part of my post from pg. 3 of this topic:

A dear old member of the Watch, Juntel, postulated, in the original, archived, "Oath of Peace" thread that in order 2 avoid Kevin's despair and access to dangerous power the New Lords strove 2 create new of rules in this "game" v. Foul. Foul being a different level of being acknowledged no Law and spat upon such a game of "belief". Thus, like others have alluded 2 above, he goes on to say that the New Lords essentially tied @least 1 of their hands behind their back. I personally, think that if Foul was active, @ all, during his "preceived" absence btween the Ritual and the beginnings of the New Lords that he may have secretly fostered such belief. If u r with me, @ all, on this supposition u can c that if it did really happen it bcomes a game w/in a game w/in a game...

Foul tells TC, "You cannot hope." and whether or not the white gold was the true motive in Drool's botched summoning--perhaps the Creator was even smarter than we thought...Because TC is the x-factor: If Foul did have a hand in this game by "boxing in" the New Lords through such a belief system (thus making their belief in their own xistence all the more "real" 2 them) he surely didn't count on someone coming along who didn't nessesarily believe in their xistence or some1 who was outside "the box" and on more of an even playing field w/Foul. Perhaps Foul was inadvertently doing TC a favor by telling him "You cannot hope" when Foamfollower astutely points out that "hope may mislead". Along w/what I have already said re: "the game" the more the New Lord's xistence bcame all the more "real" 2 them: via their life-purpose in upholing the OofP, it is no wonder TC is "closed" 2 them.

[Furls Fire]

oh, I agree that Foul manipulated the New Lords into an Oath of Peace. How perfect for him, in his warped mind it was their greatest weakness. Peace. Such peace-fairing people would never strike a first blow, would never seek to destroy him.

But, I don't think the Oath of Peace made them weak. It made them less accessible to Kevin's Lore, yes. But, it is not weak. Holding peace does not make you weak. In fact, holding the peace can be harder than seeking out the fight. It did NOT prevent them fighting, however, when it came to that pass. I never considered the new lords to be weak. Mhoram, in all his greatness, actually USED his Oath of Peace to prevent the desecration of Revelstone, and then to slay the Raver. Using his Oath in conjunction with the power of the RoD. And yes, at that same time he was fighting the Raver, Elena's attention was swayed from the Colossus and Covenant long enough for Triock to knock the ring from her hand. It is all interconnected.

Covenant's summoning that first time by Drool was a manipulation by Foul to get his hands on the white gold to destroy the Arch of Time, he wasn't after the wielder, just the gold. The creator is the one who actually chose Covenant. He stepped in. In that way, Foul's manipultaions were foiled. Oh, he tried to bend Covenant to his will. But, what he didn't think about was Covenant was already familiar with despair and grief. It made him "wise" to such manipulations. When Foul says to him "You cannot hope", I believe that only set Covenant's resolve more. Not at first maybe, because he was in his denial there for much of the 1st Chrons..but when the time came, it definitely fueled his fire to rid the Land of this monster.

"Ah, you are stubborn yet."

"By God, yes."

Foul really wasn't that smart. All his manipulations did him in at the end. The Oath of Peace played a big part in that.

[Forestal]

"Ah, you are stubborn yet."

"By God, yes, stubborn!"

thats like my favorite TC quote ever..

[Tony Zbaraschuk]

I don't think Foul had a hand in the Oath of Peace -- he would have been too weakened after the Ritual of Desecration to do very much of anything at all. Besides, forbearing hate and contempt isn't his style at all -- consider the Clave and what he made of the Council, when he _could_ meddle.

Mhoram isn't using the Oath of Peace; Mhoram is deliberately setting it aside, letting himself be mastered by hope and love (and hatred and determination), in order that he can fight with enough power to defeat Satansfist. It works.

It's not a course of action recommended for daily use.

[Fist and Faith]

Besides, forbearing hate and contempt isn't his style at all

But Foul is a sneaky one, and he loves it when people serve his purposes while they think they're opposing him.

I love these ideas, where someone tries to see something from an entirely different view. That's what it's all about! An argument is made that something that appears to be unrelated to Foul, or in opposition to him, is actually his doing. Very cool!!

[variol son]

It wouldn't be the only time SRD wrote a character who could work out what people would do in certain situations, manipulate those situations, and figure out contingency plans just in case. Warden Dios was a master at planning ahead and getting his way even when it looked like he wasn't. Certainly Foul and Dios are fundamentally different, but I just thought of that little similarity then.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[hue of fuzzpaws]

Has it ever come up in any discussions about the Oath of Peace whether Lord Foul had any hand in the forming of the oath, bearing in mind the limiting effect it had as regards Kevin's lore?

[deer of the dawn]

Look at the post above (on this page) by danlo.

[hue of fuzzpaws]

Saw it after I posted the question.

[CaamoraTime]

As we all know, the intent of the Oath of Peace was intended to prevent despair. What it really did was removed a degree of passion from the people of the land IMHO. Limiting passion prevents crimes of passion, but it also removes all the great things that extreme passion can provide.

Most of us all know someone who is on a medication that keeps them level; like Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, etc... It keeps them from getting too down, but it also keeps them from the other emotional extreme, which can be extremely beneficial. Think about the greatest people in almost every profession and imagine them being more emotionally moderate. While Ernest Hemmingway probably wouldn't have killed himself, he probably wouldn't have had the experiences or emotions to create the great works that he did. Artists, musicians, inventors, philosophers, politicians...the best were generally passionate about their profession, which is what helped make them so good.

I'm sure the lore of the Old Lords was discovered, improved and used in the most amazing ways by people of passion. Heck; Berek would have died on the side of Mount Thunder and their would have been no Old Lords if he would have been under the Oath of Peace. With their passion being limited by the Oath I'm sure there were fundamental things about the Lore the New Lords just didn't interpret it in the way it was meant or some they might not have grasped at all.

I haven't read all the responses here and I doubt the way I see it is anything new. That's how I interpreted it, for what it's worth.

[wayfriend]

I'm with Tony Z on this one. I think Lord Foul was out of comission when the Oath was envisioned.

It's tempting to say that the Oath worked out in Foul's favor. But, other than generally making the Old Lords weaker, it didn't seem to do anything very specific for him. (Contrast with, say, the Power of Command.) And discounting the White Gold, he would have had the upper hand with or without the Oath. So I don't see his hand in it.

And we can never tell what would have happened without the Oath. Perhaps the Oath was the only thing that prevented another Kevin. (As demonstrated by the Power of Command.) So it seems to have worked against despite as much as for despite, in one regard. Foul manipulates by giving people power, power that they can't control, more often than denying them power.

I like what CaamoraTime says about hights and lows. And I think that that's part of Donaldson is hinting at here. We need our passion, we need to risk the lows and dare the highs.

[danlo]

I disagree.

[deer of the dawn]

And Lord Foul is pretty good at taking anything and turning it to his own advantage, good or bad. I agree that the Oath's intent was to prevent another Desecration: but in order to gain the full lore, they have to take that risk sooner or later.

[wayfriend]

Assuredly Foul made use of the Oath's weakness. If nothing else, he loved causing people to break it, and thereby engender self-despite.

But did he have a hand in creating it, beyond participating in the Ritual itself? That's the question.

[Ranek skyweir]

Okay i may be diving into this debate when you fine folk have read far further and for far longer than I...but heres something to consider...

The oath of peace may have weakened the new lords because of there reluctance to be mastered by passion, but maybe it had a strengh of its own? For instance it allowed triock to overcome his hate for convenant and in doing so aid the land, aswell as atiaran...although she did want to break it badly by the end. And trell well okay maybe it didnt help trell!

Also would you say convenant kept to the laws of the oath of peace at the end of the power that preserves? evan though he didnt take the oath itself.

[Furls Fire]

Wow, I love it when these old threads come back to life!!

[Fist and Faith]

I can't believe how long ago I started this thread!