The onset of the Sunbane

[Prebe]

If you consider Law to be the "bones", and Earthpower as the "muscles", I think you have a pretty close analogy. Lore is simply the conduit through which the will of the wielder manipulates the muscles in accordence with the structure of the bones. You need all four to be effective: Will (or purpose), conduit, power, and structure. In the creation of the new staff of law(conduit), Linden provided the will/purpose, Vain the structure, and Findail the power.

[Ur-Lord a-Jeroth]

And then there was the statement made to Covenent when Vain led him to the Hall of Gifts. He was told the lore no longer worked under the Sunbane. But did it really not work or was that more lies told by the Ravers to keep the land under their control.

I imagine that the lore of the Old Lords truly did not work. Their lore was based on a natural order of Earthpower and followed the Law. Without the existance of Law, their powers had no definition. Forgive my random and odd analogy, but its like coloring in a coloring book. The lines drawn on the page allow for definition and distinction. If the lines are erased/taken away (absence of Law), then all of the boundaries become murky and confused. Add to that a change in medium from say crayons to paint (Earthpower to corrupted Earthpower) and you come up with chaotic mixtures that dont create anything.
This isnt to say that something cannot be made from an absence of rigid guidelines as with abstract art. As we can see, the Clave has found their own means to lore/power out of the new circumstances. Since the power is still there, it can still be tapped, only the old way can't work as the rules for the old methods have changed.
(I hope this makes sense....I'm not at all certain that is does....)

[Relayer]

Possibly. And welcome to the Watch!!

But consider... the Wards were "shining" ... that implies that their power still worked. I suspect it was more of a lie to force people to only use the BloodLore taught by the Clave.

What I don't understand is why the Wards and Lore weren't all destroyed. As long as it existed, it was at least possible that someone would find it and know, or figure out, how to use it. For example, why are the heels of the Staff still there where Vain can get them? Is there another level of intrigue going on, is everything protected somehow? Are all these lore-objects somehow impossible to destroy? (perhaps Kevin made them so). Or does Foul need them to exist, because they in some way maintain the Law/Lore which he can then corrupt?

[SoulBiter]

Actually that raises another question. Do you think the 4th, 5th, and 6th wards still exist?

[SleeplessOne]

Actually that raises another question. Do you think the 4th, 5th, and 6th wards still exist?

Yes, here's what lay hidden within each :

the 4th Ward : contains a bawdy, unedited version of the tale of Bahgoon the terrible and Thelma Twofist, a Staff-lengthening kit, a list detailing where to find all of the Waymeets offering a 'good time' and rough plans for a wheel

the 5th Ward : contains Kevin's preliminary designs for radical new Lord's raiment made of lycra, the detailed whereabouts of weapons of mass destruction, a holiday brochure from Andelain

the 6th Ward : contains a set of instructional books;
'Building your own Way & Door for Dummies'
'The Ritual of Desecration in three miserable steps'
'You've activated the krill, so now what ?'
'Coping with Desolation'
'101 uses for Wild Magic'
and Elvis's sideburns

[Ur-Lord a-Jeroth]

What I don't understand is why the Wards and Lore weren't all destroyed. As long as it existed, it was at least possible that someone would find it and know, or figure out, how to use it. For example, why are the heels of the Staff still there where Vain can get them? Is there another level of intrigue going on, is everything protected somehow? Are all these lore-objects somehow impossible to destroy? (perhaps Kevin made them so). Or does Foul need them to exist, because they in some way maintain the Law/Lore which he can then corrupt?

I believe that the Wards are in some sense, sustained by Earthpower or have a resonance to it. Their shining is a form of recognition that Earthpower still exists, though in a corrupt form. If Earthpower disappeared, the Wards would cease to shine. While this could explain why they continue to shine, it does not necessarily follow that their power is still potent. In the GI on 6/01/04, Donaldson says:

Now, of course (I mean after "The Second Chronicles") *all* of Kevin's lore has effectively ceased to exist. (Linden's new Staff of Law doesn't even have *runes,* for crying out loud.) And without that lore to give it substance, the seventh word--if anyone chanced to discover it--would be meaningless.

If Kevin’s Lore has ceased to exist and the 7th Word is meaningless, wouldn’t it follow that the Wards are meaningless? In my mind, Kevin’s Lore was defined by the Laws and purity of Earthpower during the time of the Lords. Once those Laws were washed away at the end of the First Chronicles, Kevin’s Lore lost its potency and was gradually extinguished as the Earthpower became more and more corrupt. (While Law upheld and made the lore from the Wards powerful, the lore could exist to some degree without Law. But the lore of the Wards could not be reconciled with the corrupted Earthpower) Even at the end of the Second Chronicles, the old Lore is still obsolete. While Linden redeemed the corrupt Earthpower, she placed new Laws and new strictures- different guidelines and definitions. While Law has returned, the rules are different and Kevin’s Lore is still impotent in this new order.

If (and I repeat IF) this were true, I find it easier to understand why Lord Foul and the Ravers chose not to destroy the Wards and other artifacts from the time of the Lords. It follows in the theme of:

There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken.

Should the twisted and broken Clave ever come to realize the error of their ways and try revert to the lore of their forefathers, what better punishment than to find that lore impotent? I imagine it would amuse Lord Foul to no end to witness the despair of the Clave if they learned that not only had they loosed the evil of the Sunbane on the Land, but that they had also destroyed their means of redemption through the corruption of the Earthpower.

And thanks for the welcome!

[KAY1]

Remember as well that Mhoram realised the reason they could not unlock the core of Kevin's Lore was because they swore the Oath of Peace. Then when they turned aside and tried to discover their own Lore which would not preclude the Oath they had no use for the Wards which was mentioned in TWL when TC found the Second Ward and asked why they had not used it and Gibbon or whoever he was speaking with said something about it belonging to a lost Age or lost power and that they had no use for it so it was just kept.

I am also sure it said somewhere ( sorry havent read 2nd chrons for a long time) that part of the reason the sunbane was able to take hold was because the Oath blinded them in some way to the hazard which was slowly coming upon them. It seems that although they had good intentions ie peace and did not want to give any time to destructive emotions, it was these emotions which gave Kevin his power. It is all about balance. You can't have good withour evil etc. If there is no evil then 'good' is meaningless!

[wayfriend]

If Kevin’s Lore has ceased to exist and the 7th Word is meaningless, wouldn’t it follow that the Wards are meaningless? In my mind, Kevin’s Lore was defined by the Laws and purity of Earthpower during the time of the Lords. Once those Laws were washed away at the end of the First Chronicles, Kevin’s Lore lost its potency and was gradually extinguished as the Earthpower became more and more corrupt. (While Law upheld and made the lore from the Wards powerful, the lore could exist to some degree without Law. But the lore of the Wards could not be reconciled with the corrupted Earthpower) Even at the end of the Second Chronicles, the old Lore is still obsolete. While Linden redeemed the corrupt Earthpower, she placed new Laws and new strictures- different guidelines and definitions. While Law has returned, the rules are different and Kevin’s Lore is still impotent in this new order.

I interpret things a bit differently.

"Lore" is a purely human achievement. It could be described as knowledge+skill+wisdom+experience. When we speak of the Lords' lore, we mean k+s+w+e of weilding Earthpower; but in a general sense there could be other types of lore.

So, in Donaldson's quote above, "all of Kevin's lore has ceased to exist" refers to a loss of knowledge, skills, wisdom, and experience weilding earthpower. The ability to pass on that human achievement (teaching) was broken, and the achievement was forgotten. It doesn't mean that the Earthpower was lost or the Law was lost.

And "without that lore to give it substance, the seventh word would be meaningless". Yes, it is an utterance without any context with which to interpret it, it is a power which know one has the knowledge, skill, wisdom, or experience to weild.

But the wards? Well, they are, by design, meant to restore lore to people who don't have it. It preserved the ability to pass on that human achievement, when other, more normal methods were lost. So, in theory, they could be picked up and be useful in restoring lore.

But they can't. Not because they are inherently uncapable. But for other reasons, which I will speak of further down.

The Sunbane was a corruption of Law. Law is the physics of the Land, if you will - the laws that govern how the world works - and the Sunbane changed how it works. The Sunbane is also spoken of as a corruption of Earthpower as well, but I believe it's closer to say that the Earthpower remained, but was channelled by different laws to express itself in different ways.

But one important things is that the Sunbane, while detrimental to humans, really did not change Law too much. Overall, the changes were minor, and really were limited to the expressions of Earthpower in the Land. It didn't change the Laws of Death or Life or Time. It didn't change cause and effect, or that people still were born, ate food to grow, then aged and died. It didn't change that plants bear fruit, or that sun and rain are needed to grow. Aliantha still nourished people. And on and on and on. To poor humans, the changes were enough to alter cultures and societies, but that's because for humans even small changes have a large effect.

But the changes, although small, were enough to make Kevin's lore, well, useless. Useless because the underlying premises no longer made sense to the people of the Sunbane. What use was a lore to grow a Revelwood when there was a dessert sun? What use was a lore to use hurtloam when hurtloam no longer existed? What use was a lore to make beautiful art when the leisure time to practice art was gone?

In short, the changes in Law changed peoples lives, and Kevin's lore no longer had any use to those lives. And then it was forgotten because people needed every jot of time and energy to survive.

After Linden healed the Land, Kevin's Wards might have been useful once again. The Land wasn't the same ... but close enough. Apparently, it wasn't, but I think that that had more to do with Mhoram's decision long ago in abandoning Kevin's lore. Which he did not do because it was useless, but because he wanted to develop a different lore with a different ethical and moral basis.

Just as there are different martial arts, there can be different lores. Kevin had his, which is really the lore of the Old Lores. The ur-viles and Waynhim had theirs - a lore based not so much on harmony with Law. Mhoram wanted to create a new one. The Clave created yet another one. Kasreyn had his own lore, based on circles. Etc.

[SoulBiter]

Great explanation Wayfriend! Thats pretty much how I see the wards.

[drew]

Wards, and Words. (and Weirds and Worms).

Can be so different, yet similar.

-Without touching anything about the Last Chonicles

There was still some Earthpower...Sunder and Hollian proved that...Though Sunder used blood, he also used Orcrest.
It's just Kevin's interpretaion of that Lore that is probebly useless now.
Since Kevin lived for longer than any of the Old Lords, then he most likely put his own swing on how they utilized the Earthpower.
And that proved to (Obviously) have some of flaws in it.

Enter the NEW lords...and they try to Use Kevin's Lore (or interpretation) mixed with their own (The Oath of Peace; their Mind Melds)--and that works just as poorly...not until Covenant finally gets a pair and tried to help; and Mhoram realises that their lore is flawed do things start to come around.
Now Mhoram on the other hand, had his own interpretation, and did just as much as Kevin (if not more) with it.
Although it too (obviously) had some flaws...Or else the Council wouldn't have been so easily taken over.

Sunder and Hollian come by, and probely made up their own interpretations..at first using some of the Very Old (Loric's krill before the quest came back) and later the new (The new staff of Law)

Again that proves to be (somewhat) flawed, or we wouldn't have a Third Chronicles (I'm saying anything about them...)

So is their ANY pure use of Earthpower?
the Elohim? Yeah right!!

Kary's Son (The Kemper) even tells TC that he has to flaw all his works in order for them to work....so it's no surprise that EVERYone's interpritation of how to Weild Earthpower is not perfect.

That in mind...it would have been useless for anyone in the 2nd chrons to try and use Kevin's Lore (Or even Mhorams lore) because they would have been using something that was already proven to be dommed to fail.

If Sunder and Hollian had of returned to Revelstone and began studying and teaching out of the First Three wards...everything...word for wrod that Kevin had written, then all they would be doing would be setting themselves up for a coucil of Lords able to be infiltrated by Foul himself, and then a war with him, with the onlysolution being another desecration.

So yeah...Kevin's wards and Kevin's words (kevin's weird if you will) is usless now.

[matrixman]

Great posts, drew and Wayfriend. All of which makes me wonder what kind of lore will finally be "perfect" or strong enough to withstand Despite...and that brings me back to SRD's saying that a more "lasting solution" to Despite is to be attempted in the Last Chronicles - whatever the heck that means. (Nah, don't tell me, I'll just wait for the books, thanks.)

[Edge]

Words and wards and weirds, oh my!

[Rocksister]

Sleepless One, thank you for explaining what's in the hidden wards. The Staff lenthening kit was quite an interesting inclusion.

[emotional leper]

Sleepless One, thank you for explaining what's in the hidden wards. The Staff lenthening kit was quite an interesting inclusion.

Those crazy 'Old' Lords...

[Cail]

Nice SleeplessOne.

I've often wondered what would have happened had the other Wards been found, or even worse (for the story, at least) if lore had been abandoned and there was a technical and industrial revolution in the Land.

Can you imagine the TV shows?

"Pimp my Ranyhyn"

"Are You Smarter Than a Stonedowner?"

"The Nicor Hunter"

and of course...

"Law and Order"

[emotional leper]

Nice SleeplessOne.

I've often wondered what would have happened had the other Wards been found, or even worse (for the story, at least) if lore had been abandoned and there was a technical and industrial revolution in the Land.

Can you imagine the TV shows?

"Pimp my Ranyhyn"

"Are You Smarter Than a Stonedowner?"

"The Nicor Hunter"

and of course...

"Law and Order"

All the Cops would be Haruchai...

*shudders*

Or "Ultimate Haruchai Fighting Championship."

[SleeplessOne]

Nice SleeplessOne.

I've often wondered what would have happened had the other Wards been found, or even worse (for the story, at least) if lore had been abandoned and there was a technical and industrial revolution in the Land.

Can you imagine the TV shows?

"Pimp my Ranyhyn"

"Are You Smarter Than a Stonedowner?"

"The Nicor Hunter"

and of course...

"Law and Order"

haha yes, the introduction of TV to the Land would have disasterous effects upon it's inhabitants;
Manethrall Strate : 'Cord Pappadum, the Ranyhyn require tending, will you not see to their needs ?'
Cord Pappadum : 'sure, right after 'Revelstone's funniest home videos'

[Relayer]

And Geico would make a series of TV commercials (soon to become a movie) starring the Unfettered Ones...

[drew]

-Plus all those Elohim Evangalist shows...

[SleeplessOne]

.. and the Haruchai chat shows