Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:27 pm

Perhaps my favorite fantasy character or creature is the Dragon. Something about a Dragon seems very cool or very hot depending on which end of the creature you are talking about. In film all I need is for a Dragon to be involved and I’m interested. Sleeping Beauty, Dragonslayer, Dragonheart, Shrek and of course Reign of Fire (which was spectacular for the discriminating Dragon fan.) I suppose what I’m wondering is.. Would Dragons have been out of place in the Land? This is a world that is not devoid of traditional fantasy creatures. I hold up the Griffin as an example. Perhaps the presence of Dragons would have been a distraction to the ambience of the story. Having something akin to an aerial gun platform would have been too much of an advantage to Lord Foul’s forces to be useful in the context of the story. I still tend to wonder what SRD might have done with a few Dragons flapping about wreaking havoc around Revelstone or worse Dooms Retreat.

Post by **Brinn** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:35 pm

I don't think Dragons would have benefited the story. IMHO they are becoming very cliche. I haven't seen a new take on dragons in a good long while.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:40 pm

Brinn wrote:I don't think Dragons would have benefited the story. IMHO they are becoming very cliche. I haven't seen a new take on dragons in a good long while.

I actually tend to agree with you, however they weren't all that cliche back in the early seventies when SRD was crafting his orignal story. I don't in any way suggest that they should be added to the mix of the Last Chronicles. I'm just day dreaming here.

Post by **danlo** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:19 pm

Fire Lions and Sandgorgons fill the void 4 me--and the occasional Griffin-type-thingy-bird....

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:24 pm

Kind of surprising SRD didn't include a parallel of some sort to Smaug... though, well, not really. I just don't feel it would have fit into the story. IMO, dragons tend to take up, well, too much room in a story. They're not very discrete creatures. Love 'em, but...

BTW, great dragon usage in Williams' The War of the Flowers.

Post by **Brinn** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:36 pm

Hmmm...Good point Clear. I always forget how long ago these books were written.

I've always seen the Chronicles as Anti-Fantasy although maybe Alternative or Non-Standard fantasy would be a better characterization. What I'm trying to say is that it's not Classic fantasy (i.e. Tolkienesque, Arthurian or Dungeons and Dragons type fantasy) in the typical sense. The only classical fantasy characters are the Giants and they are wholly re-imagined by SRD. I think the presence of dragons would introduce one of these Archetypal fantasy standards or classic elements thus watering down the impact of the Land. In other words, I believe that SRD wants us to take his world as a plausible alternate world as opposed to the cliched fantasy world of dragons and trolls and knights in shining armor.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:41 pm

Brinn wrote:Hmmm...Good point Clear. I always forget how long ago these books were written.

I've always seen the Chronicles as Anti-Fantasy although maybe Alternative or Non-Standard fantasy would be a better characterization. What I'm trying to say is that it's not Classic fantasy (i.e. Tolkienesque, Arthurian or Dungeons and Dragons type fantasy) in the typical sense. The only classical fantasy characters are the Giants and they are wholly re-imagined by SRD. I think the presence of dragons would introduce one of these Archetypal fantasy standards or classic elements thus watering down the impact of the Land. In other words, I believe that SRD wants us to take his world as a plausible alternate world as opposed to the cliched fantasy world of dragons and trolls and knights in shining armor.

That is a very reasonable point. I would have been far less speculative on the supject if there hadn't been the presence of Griffins. But considering the point you are making, Griffins were an inclusion that tends to bend your opinion and the addition of Dragons would ultimately break the intended mood. I get it.

Post by **Brinn** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:51 pm

I don't precisely recall the Griffins in the Chronicles. Were they part of Foul's army? Were they called Griffins? They must have played a very minute role as I've read the Chronicles several times and can't recall them.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:01 pm

Brinn wrote:I don't precisely recall the Griffins in the Chronicles. Were they part of Foul's army? Were they called Griffins? They must have played a very minute role as I've read the Chronicles several times and can't recall them.

The most obvious or famous instance came at the battle of soaring woodhelven. Foamfollower wrestled with one that nearly tore him up.
They are also mentioned as part of Flessharrower's army. I hope that isn't a spoiler. One never know how much one can say openly.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:02 pm

Brinn wrote:I don't precisely recall the Griffins in the Chronicles. Were they part of Foul's army? Were they called Griffins? They must have played a very minute role as I've read the Chronicles several times and can't recall them.

Yes, they were called griffins, and were included in both Fleshharrower's and Satansfist's armies. Quaan first encountered them while trying to hold back FH's army. And,

Spoiler

Hile Troy encountered a griffin at Doriendor Corishev. SRD described the griffin as carrying Ruel's (HT's Bloodguard) body. When HT killed the griffin by severing it's head, the blood from the griffin sprayed on HT's face, causing his blindness.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:04 pm

clearfrontier wrote:
Brinn wrote:I don't precisely recall the Griffins in the Chronicles. Were they part of Foul's army? Were they called Griffins? They must have played a very minute role as I've read the Chronicles several times and can't recall them.
The most obvious or famous instance came at the battle of soaring woodhelven. Foamfollower wrestled with one that nearly tore him up.
They are also mentioned as part of Flessharrower's army. I hope that isn't a spoiler. One never know how much one can say openly.

I forgot about the one at Soaring Woodhelven - you're absolutely correct.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:06 pm

dlbpharmd wrote:
Brinn wrote:I don't precisely recall the Griffins in the Chronicles. Were they part of Foul's army? Were they called Griffins? They must have played a very minute role as I've read the Chronicles several times and can't recall them.
Yes, they were called griffins, and were included in both Fleshharrower's and Satansfist's armies. Quaan first encountered them while trying to hold back FH's army. And,

Spoiler
Hile Troy encountered a griffin at Doriendor Corishev. SRD described the griffin as carrying Ruel's (HT's Bloodguard) body. When HT killed the griffin by severing it's head, the blood from the griffin sprayed on HT's face, causing his blindness.

Great examples all.

Post by **Forestal** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:10 pm

i believe there was also a griffin at the "battle" of sarangrave flat... with the bloodguard and lord shetra/hyrim... i maybe wrong... but i seem to remember something about a bloodguard getting a sword and cutting its head off...

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:37 pm

Hmmm - I don't think so. And I can't remember any instance where a Bloodguard used a weapon.

Post by **theDespiser** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:45 am

putting a parallel to Smaug would have been TOO blatant...heheh

anyway, i agree with the cliche comments...theres an abundance of fantasy stories out there with dragons aplenty, and to put dragons in his books would have just served to lump the covenant books in with all the others...

i mean, i like dragons too, but theres so many other choices for that kind of thing

Post by **hierachy** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:59 am

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:27 pm Post subject: Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps my favorite fantasy character or creature is the Dragon. Something about a Dragon seems very cool or very hot depending on which end of the creature you are talking about. In film all I need is for a Dragon to be involved and I’m interested. Sleeping Beauty, Dragonslayer, Dragonheart, Shrek and of course Reign of Fire (which was spectacular for the discriminating Dragon fan.)

I s'pose that's why you take notice of me then clear, attracted to my avatar?

Post by **aTOMiC** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:09 pm

Hierachy wrote:
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:27 pm Post subject: Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps my favorite fantasy character or creature is the Dragon. Something about a Dragon seems very cool or very hot depending on which end of the creature you are talking about. In film all I need is for a Dragon to be involved and I’m interested. Sleeping Beauty, Dragonslayer, Dragonheart, Shrek and of course Reign of Fire (which was spectacular for the discriminating Dragon fan.)
I s'pose that's why you take notice of me then clear, attracted to my avatar?

You might have a point there Hierachy. You might have a point. Hmmm...

Post by **hierachy** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:56 pm

Well that's a pity, I'm gonna change it soon

Post by **dANdeLION** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:29 pm

I for one did not like the presence of Griffins in the 1st Chronicles, and would not have welcomed dragons. TC was unique, his allies were unique, and his enemies were unique. Giants, Lords and Griffins were pretty much the most familiar terms that SRD used. Lords and Griffins were explained to us readers sufficiently so that they avoided being cliche, but I feel that the Griffins were very cliche, and dragons probably would have been too. Besides, Tolkein did an excellent job with Smaug, and we all have precise ideas about dragons anyway; what could Donaldson have added to that?

Post by **danlo** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:43 pm

Well there really isn't any currency, or "treasure" as it were in the Land. Also the dragons might have starved to death w/o any sheep (we wouldn't want them eating Ranyhyn now would we...). If Dragons were equated with Earthpower they might be TOO powerful--but it might be fun to see them scaring the bejesus o/o the Elohim

And it would be very sad to see Forestals with firehoses trying to stop them from torching what's left of the One Forest. Yes the Griffins seemed a little o/o place--but I'll tell u 1 thing-they scared the bejesus o/o this Elohim!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?

Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?