Berek and Thomas

[Furls Fire]

I cry the Watch's pardon if this has been threaded before. I know it's been discussed off and on in other threads, but I thought I would start one on it because of all the new speculations that come along with the Last Chronicles.

Did Berek and Thomas meet or could Thomas actually be Berek? If I had to make a choice between the two of those possibilities, I would say the first one. With SRD playing around with Time and Thomas being the Keystone of the Arch, I think it makes more sense that Thomas would actually meet and talk to Berek. I know, sounds far-fetched. But, I've been thinking about this (I know, it's a dangerous habit, me thinking, but bear with me, okay?) How did Berek know about the Wild Magic which destroys Peace? Did the Creator himself tell him, or the Earthpower, OR could it have been Thomas? Where did the prophecy of Berek's return come from?

I could be way off the mark with this, and I probably am, but I love this sort of thing. It's fun to speculate. So, what does everyone else think??

[Ylva Kresh]

Yes, I have been thinking the same (as have probably many others). But there are some strange flaws in that hypothesis (like the fingers being shopped of by a raver and such) - but Berek was in the Land long time ago, perhaps the myth have changed in to legends etc... and the truth has become slightly modified?

[dANdeLION]

I think it's possible that TC could go back in time and become Berek later on in TC's life, assuming he comes back to corporeal form in the 3rd chronicles. He would have all the knowledge necessary to be the lord-fatherer. Apparently Elena discerned Desecration from him, so he theoretically has that to teach the lords. If he did come back in corporeal form, presumably he'd have all of his fingers, and no more ring. Also, att those prophecies, like the one about the Giants of Seareach; TC knows this stuff, and would know how to prase it so he wouldn't tip his younger self off in the future (!). Of course, there is much more to it than just this, but SRD is definitely clever enough to be able to figure it all out, especially after having 20 years to think about it.

[Skyweir]

I agree and I dont think it is far-fetched at all Furls.

I think that its not only likely that TC could meet Berek .. if time travel is going to be a part of the 3rd chrons .. but that in that past TC could be Berek.

I am not sure if this would be a flawless notion however .. and I am sure as dAN says that SRD could work it out if thats on his agenda ..

on the basis of their incredible physical similarities .. but why would he call himself Berek?

I think this would make a brilliant twist .. kinda Terminator-esque ..

[dANdeLION]

but why would he call himself Berek?

I can only think of two reasons. One, he knew that was supposed to be his name back then, and didn't want to freak out his future/past self any more anyway. And two, it was the name he performed as a singer under.

[Skyweir]

LOL

[aTOMiC]

I agree and I dont think it is far-fetched at all Furls.

I think that its not only likely that TC could meet Berek .. if time travel is going to be a part of the 3rd chrons .. but that in that past TC could be Berek.

I am not sure if this would be a flawless notion however .. and I am sure as dAN says that SRD could work it out if thats on his agenda ..

on the basis of their incredible physical similarities .. but why would he call himself Berek?

I think this would make a brilliant twist .. kinda Terminator-esque ..

Suppose TC, knowing the history of the Land, feels obligated to use the alias "Berek" if he should find himself playing the roll. Perhaps he can't help but fall in love with the Queen and naturally tends to follow the path laid down by the time line as it was known. Can't you just see him kneeling on the slopes of Mount Thunder muttering "I don't believe it. I'm bloody Berek. Well, lets get this over with."

[dANdeLION]

Maybe TC will meet Thelma Twofist back then...

[aTOMiC]

Maybe TC will meet Thelma Twofist back then...

And do what? Thelma is way too much woman for any man. She's too much woman for Baghoon or any Giant! She's too much woman.

[dANdeLION]

Maybe TC will meet Thelma Twofist back then...

And do what? Thelma is way too much woman for any man. She's too much woman for Baghoon or any Giant! She's too much woman.

I just said meet. Get your helmet out of the gutter.

[Skyweir]

I can only think of two reasons. One, he knew that was supposed to be his name back then, and didn't want to freak out his future/past self any more anyway. And two, it was the name he performed as a singer under.

ok .. lets think about it ..

ok If TC addressed his future-past self as Berek to protect his future-future self and I guess the past inhabitants and their future history of the legend of Berek .. I still dont get it ..

because ok once TC is back in the past .. he would be identified by whatever name he disseminated there .. whatever name he calls himself (TC, Berek, the Leperous Armadillo, Bob the builder .. whatever?) .. then the future is determined by whatever that name is. So the landers would perpetuate a legend of his true self/ or his our world identification .. or some other fabrication.

but yes .. it would be quite a freak out for TC on his first visit to the Land .. to be told that he TC had visited this land in the past .. and it is indeed his legendary awaited return!!

Either way .. it seems odd to call identify himself as some other dude .. but for the need to protect his clearly already threatened sanity.

Which is a good reason actually

and ok .. as for the other reason! LOL

.. and well Beren , not Berek .. never performed as a singer .. he was besotted with the singer .. who was in fact female.

[dANdeLION]

.. and well Beren , not Berek .. never performed as a singer .. he was besotted with the singer .. who was in fact female.

She mentioned Beret as being the guy who taught her how to sing. Beren wasn't the name at all, but sounds like an historical character in the LOTR, Beren one-hand. Or was then Berel; I can never quiter remember...

[danlo]

One of my crazy pet theories floating around the Watch somewhere is that Berek may have visited our world or may have had a little talk w/the Creator. When he was fashioning the original Staff of Law and playing with Earthpower he may have summoned himself to our world, or partially opened up a portal between both worlds--he may have either brought different substances back to the Land or been forewarned by the Creator about what white gold could do in his world... Another theory I have is that it really was Berek not Berret that Susie was refering to and that Berek may still be wandering our world--as our time is much slower. The Berek of the Land was known as a singer--and yes he wasn't the drunk guy.

[Furls Fire]

So many possibilities. Could he really be Berek and named himself that so he would not freak his future self out? WOW, think on that...what a paradox!!!

And danlo, what a cool theory that is, about Berek roaming around our world. Susie mistaking Covenant for him has always stuck in my mind. How she claimed he was a dead ringer for "Berett" or "Berek"...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm Gets ya thinkin...

[danlo]

That's another part of the theory, Furls: That Berek was trying to catch up with Suzie and was near TC's town at the beginning of LFB-and that Foul (via Drool) was actually trying the summon him, but got TC by mistake. Not the 1st botched summoning we hear of...

[Furls Fire]

LOL...now we're really jumping thru hoops. Foul wasn't actually trying to summon anyone in particular I don't think..he just wanted white gold. The Creator stepped in and chose Covenant. Which, brings up another branch of the theory, could the Creator have chosen Covenant because he was really Berek????

[W.B.]

How did Berek know about the Wild Magic which destroys Peace? Did the Creator himself tell him, or the Earthpower, OR could it have been Thomas? Where did the prophecy of Berek's return come from?

Oh no! One of those time-circles / which-came-first things! I need an Asprin!

I think there's definitely something that will happen to deal with the similarities between Berek and Covenant. It's hard to choose which I think is more likely, a meeting or that they are the same person. I kind of don't feel there will be too much nuts-and-bolts time-travel stuff, like the trying to preserve the future timeline and stuff, it doesn't strike me quite as Donaldson's brand of theorizing/philosophizing. But who knows! If the connection isn't dealt with in *some* way, though, I'd be really surprised....

[Fist and Faith]

I've always wanted to know where they got all their information from.
-Tamarantha's Creator story
-Foul laughing at Kevin during the Ritual
-The purpose of the Colossus (which they were wrong about)
etc

I mean, what's the deal? Did guys like Mhoram and Kevin see things, and they assumed it was accurate? Did Elohim tell them stuff? Did the Earthpower tell them some things?

[Furls Fire]

Thomas did, when he went back in time

[Fist and Faith]

Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting.