Berek and Thomas

Post by **Ylva Kresh** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:26 am

And how do we explain how it is possible for Covenant to acctually meet Berek (or rather his specter) in Fouls Creche in the end of TPTP? Wouldnt he have recognized himself or something? But on the other side: the small description of Berek (dominating man = huge or seemed to be huge? Does that fit with in with TC? and with hot prophetic eyes - that could very well fit on the description of Covenant) does not directly contradict the possibility that TC is Berek (or the other way around

)

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:48 pm

Well, and this gets tricky, at the time of Foul and Covenant meeting in Foul's Creche and even in Kiril Threndor at the end of WGW, Thomas hadn't actually gone back yet, so he wouldn't have recognized Berek, but Berek would have recognized him. Time paradoxes. This stuff makes my head spin just trying to touch on it's surface....

Post by **dANdeLION** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:56 pm

Furls Fire wrote:Well, and this gets tricky, at the time of Foul and Covenant meeting in Foul's Creche and even in Kiril Threndor at the end of WGW, Thomas hadn't actually gone back yet, so he wouldn't have recognized Berek, but Berek would have recognized him. Time paradoxes. This stuff makes my head spin just trying to touch on its surface....

I forgot about that "meeting". But there sure wasn't any time for reminiscing, seeing as how TC was kinda busy at the moment....so, maybe Berek did recognize TC, but there was no reason for it to be mentioned at the time. Besides, if TC becomes Berek, then Berek knew he would be there, remembering that he saw himself when he was TC, so he wouldn't be surprised or startled or anything. He'd just keep playing it cool.

Whew. That kind of makes me dizzy thinking about it.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:49 am

exactly! This time play is just mind boggling...and I think if anyone can pull off playing with time it's SRD. It's going to be so awesome, no matter what he decides to do with it.

Post by **caamora** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:25 am

Interesting discussion!

Maybe Berek was the beggar in the ochre robe who told TC to "be true."

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:26 am

Although I've discussed interesting possibilities, I don't really have any guess about what SRD is planning. But, like you, Fire, I have absolute faith in him.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:31 am

I don't either really. His mind eludes me, I don't have a millimeter of the creativity that man possesses. He's going to blow me away, I just know he is...

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:44 am

I know he will, too...
And its possible that if TC and Berek were the same person, that he had another body when he was Berek -- which explains losing his fingers as Berek and not recognizing him at the Creche.
Time travel paradoxes make my head swim...

And if TC IS Berek, at least he would have one kid who turns out well with Damelon Giantfriend.

Post by **Skyweir** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:14 pm

Ylva Kresh wrote:And how do we explain how it is possible for Covenant to acctually meet Berek (or rather his specter) in Fouls Creche in the end of TPTP? Wouldnt he have recognized himself or something? But on the other side: the small description of Berek (dominating man = huge or seemed to be huge? Does that fit with in with TC? and with hot prophetic eyes - that could very well fit on the description of Covenant) does not directly contradict the possibility that TC is Berek (or the other way around )

i do believe though that TC did recognise Berek .. even though he had never personally met him .. but was it really Berek then? I mean Joan also appeared to TC .. but as part of some kind of streange phenomenon ..

but lets say theoretically that TC did meet Berek .. in Andelain <only cos i cant remember how this panned out in the books> when Mhoram and the others greeted him .. werent they all there? if Berek was there .. then he would be dead in the Land .. and not in our world.

and it is odd to think of the old beggar guy being Berek .. as the Creator said it was him ..

but then if TC is the Creator and Foul .. then if the old beggar guy was BErek .. then that would work too!!

lol .. ok this is getting a might confusing

Post by **Ylva Kresh** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:18 pm

I sort of got this Sci-Fi idea that if you met yourself you would instantaniously implode or something... That might of course not be the case always

Anyway, if Covenant really is Berek there would be one more possibility: that he acctually give rise to the idea of the Krill and the fact that it respond to white gold (or if he was still alive at the time it was made - who knows? They did get really old, didnt they? - he might have done something to it while Loric looked the other direction

). But on the other side - he cant have enjoyed the thought of the consequences this might have like the quest for the seventh ward and the fate of Elena... This was mere speculation...

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:31 am

It would make sense for Covenant to go back and be Berek. Aside from things mentioned, it would explain why Berek is the only true seer and prophet.

But if it was me, and I was going to go back and be Berek, I wouldn't fortell things so that it worked out the way it did. I'd change things. I'd try to come up with a way to warn Kevin that Foul was in his midst. And I'd try to steer everybody clear of the EarthBlood. And I'd tell how the Lore that the Earthblood was teaching me interacted with an "Oath of Peace"-type of thing.

Post by **[Syl]** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:59 am

The sci-fi idea has to do with old school quantum mechanics... basically that one particle can't exist in two places (the opposite of the Pauli Exclusion Principle).

I've had many theories about the beggar (the strangest being that TC is only a sub-personality of the beggar

), but I don't think it would be Berek. He appears to have had all his fingers.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:15 am

Fist and Faith wrote:It would make sense for Covenant to go back and be Berek. Aside from things mentioned, it would explain why Berek is the only true seer and prophet.

But if it was me, and I was going to go back and be Berek, I wouldn't fortell things so that it worked out the way it did. I'd change things. I'd try to come up with a way to warn Kevin that Foul was in his midst. And I'd try to steer everybody clear of the EarthBlood. And I'd tell how the Lore that the Earthblood was teaching me interacted with an "Oath of Peace"-type of thing.

yeah Fist .. i would too!! imagine what TC could change if he was to be Berek

Post by **Variol Farseer** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:24 am

Syl wrote:The sci-fi idea has to do with old school quantum mechanics... basically that one particle can't exist in two places (the opposite of the Pauli Exclusion Principle).

It's not so much old-school quantum mechanics as old-school Doctor Who. It was called the Blinovich Limitation Effect there.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:30 pm

Skyweir wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:It would make sense for Covenant to go back and be Berek. Aside from things mentioned, it would explain why Berek is the only true seer and prophet.

But if it was me, and I was going to go back and be Berek, I wouldn't fortell things so that it worked out the way it did. I'd change things. I'd try to come up with a way to warn Kevin that Foul was in his midst. And I'd try to steer everybody clear of the EarthBlood. And I'd tell how the Lore that the Earthblood was teaching me interacted with an "Oath of Peace"-type of thing.
yeah Fist .. i would too!! imagine what TC could change if he was to be Berek

Okay, I think we are starting to touch on something here. Change things?? Could this be how Thomas "becomes" Foul?? Trying to change things for the better but actually messing it all up and allowing Foul to corrupt it even worse?? Foul corrupts Time, Thomas is the Keystone of the Arch. What if Foul allows him to "try to make things better" and then twists it all. Makes it all an illusion. Whew...wild thoughts these!

Post by **aTOMiC** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:53 pm

All kidding aside, I don't for a second believe that Berek and TC are the same guy. Connections? Yes. Fate intertwined? Certainly. Same dude at different points in time? Nah. It is illogical in my mind. I do however reserve a doubt for whatever SRD has in mind for the Last Chronicles but I'm not expecting anything to change there.............Unless is does........and then I'll eat my hat. But only then.

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:32 pm

Furls Fire wrote:
What if Foul allows him to "try to make things better" and then twists it all. Makes it all an illusion. Whew...wild thoughts these!

.. wow now your talking furls!! lol .. that would be wild ..

but who said TC would become Foul?? isnt this purely speculation?

Post by **Furls Fire** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:16 pm

Skyweir wrote:
Furls Fire wrote:
What if Foul allows him to "try to make things better" and then twists it all. Makes it all an illusion. Whew...wild thoughts these!
.. wow now your talking furls!! lol .. that would be wild ..

but who said TC would become Foul?? isnt this purely speculation?

SRD himself said it. In an interview he did with W. A. Senor, in the book Variations in Fantasy: Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, he said this...

Ok. In a hundred words or less. In the First Chronicles, Thomas Covenant faces Lord Foul and defeats him. In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant surrenders to Lord Foul and accepts him. In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul. Following the psychological paradigm through, what happens at the point that you become your own other self is that you become whole, and the universe is made new.

That is all he says about the Last Chrons in this book. Altho, the book is fantastic, he really delves into the First and Second Chrons. I may start a thread about some of the points made in the interviews and the book itself.

I found this to be very interesting and it raises so many possibilities. The title of the fourth book The Last Dark really conveys this merging between Foul and Covenant. I think somewhere else he says that the Land will be destroyed. And that Covenant will be the one to do it. But, what does that really mean? Does it literally mean that the Land will go byebye? Or does it mean that the corrupted version of the Land will go byebye and it will be renewed with more splendor then ever before?

Personally, I don't think Covenant is actually Berek...But I do think during the Time corruption and all the bouncing around, that maybe Covenant meets him and talks him. Tells him about the wild magic. But, I'm not sure Covenant would tell him about everything else, Kevin, Foul, Desecration and so forth. Maybe he will be bound by the Arch not too. Anyway...it's early and I'm babbling again....

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:42 pm

Furls Fire wrote: SRD himself said it. In an interview he did with W. A. Senor, in the book Variations in Fantasy: Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, he said this...

Ok. In a hundred words or less. In the First Chronicles, Thomas Covenant faces Lord Foul and defeats him. In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant surrenders to Lord Foul and accepts him. In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul. Following the psychological paradigm through, what happens at the point that you become your own other self is that you become whole, and the universe is made new.

wow i am flabberghasted!!

we have debated this possibility many times before .. and i have always dismissed this assertion!

and now here it is .. SRD intends TC to become Foul!

actually become despite

i am not sure how to respond to this news

what a thing to pull .. totally outrageous!! will SRD never stop pulling such outrageous shocks?

i need some time to digest this information ..

wow .. this could be absolutely awe-striking!! i am awestruck .. flawed even .. that he would even attempt a twist of such a monlithic nature!

furls wrote:That is all he says about the Last Chrons in this book. Altho, the book is fantastic, he really delves into the First and Second Chrons. I may start a thread about some of the points made in the interviews and the book itself.

I found this to be very interesting and it raises so many possibilities. The title of the fourth book The Last Dark really conveys this merging between Foul and Covenant. I think somewhere else he says that the Land will be destroyed. And that Covenant will be the one to do it. But, what does that really mean? Does it literally mean that the Land will go byebye? Or does it mean that the corrupted version of the Land will go byebye and it will be renewed with more splendor then ever before?

Personally, I don't think Covenant is actually Berek...But I do think during the Time corruption and all the bouncing around, that maybe Covenant meets him and talks him. Tells him about the wild magic. But, I'm not sure Covenant would tell him about everything else, Kevin, Foul, Desecration and so forth. Maybe he will be bound by the Arch not too. Anyway...it's early and I'm babbling again....

that would be cool .. to have this interview transcript posted here .. it sounds very interesting!!!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Berek and Thomas