Lindens healing of Pitchwife

[StarRider]

I remember a conversation in White Gold Weilder concerning Pitchwife's deformity. The First had mentioned it was a key to her love for him yet Linden "fixed" it with the Staff of Law. I realize she did so to steady herself and to help prepare her to heal the land.

I wonder what the aftermath of this action was and why she would have done such a thing. Perhaps she was unaware of the importance of it. Certainly she learned that it was not a handicap. It's been a long time since i've read that book and was hoping you fine people could shed some thoughts on this as i've often wondered why SRD may have had this happen.

[High Lord Tolkien]

(This should be moved to the general Thomas Covenant Discussion forum I think)

I think any kind of "key" to why the First loved him was how Pitchwife lived his life despite his deformity.
It was his soul that she loved not his body.

The fact that Linden healed his body would not have changed how the First felt about Pitchwife.
It would have made it a lot more fun!

I can't see Pitchwife turning into a bad person under any circumstances.

[wayfriend]

Hail, StarRider.

The First was tested by the Elohim with a hale Pitchwife. She rejected it. Because the Pitchwife she saw was was different inside.

But Linden healed Pitchwife as a deserved gift. It did not change him inside. That makes it completely different. Then it's like HLT says above.

No one would ever PREFER someone to be deformed.

[Dawngreeter]

When I first read about this healing I too had the same reaction. That was what Pitchwife was, a deformed cripple which maybe shaped his personality. I never really understood it, heck I would have taken the Elohim up on fixing me. The aftermath of the healing - maybe PW ran off & picked up a new giant chic a little less domineering *pffftt meow*

But to me I see no difference between how or by who I am healed. I would be healed and how I took that would be up to me.

[Relayer]

Interestingly, this now makes me think it was foreshadowing something from Runes:

Spoiler

When Linden twice heals Stave against his will.

Contrast this w/ her reaction to Anele, who refused healing when they recovered the Staff... but Linden accepted it. And Bhapa and Saha.

[lucimay]

read Fatal Revenant

[duchess of malfi]

While it is certainly a "feel good" moment, Linden's healing of Pitchwife without his consent is actually a very serious breaking of the ethics of modern medicine as practicised in the US (just as her two healings of Stave shatter medical ethics in Runes).

If a patient is brought into an ER in an unresponsive state, then sure - go ahead and heal them. Because you have no way of knowing what that patient's wishes are, and their life is on the line.

But if a patient is a legal adult of sound mind and able to communicate - they have the right to decide which therapies, if any they will undergo at the hands of medical staff. Yes - that means they have the legal and ethical right to turn down treatments and therapies, even if that refusal will end in their death.

Linden would have her butt hauled very quickly before the ethics/disiplinary board of the hospital where I work for healing Pitchwife and Stave without their consent.

She violated their basic and fundamental patient/human rights in those healings.

Now - I am not, and never will be a member of THOOLAH. I have always liked Linden.

And I have no idea if Donaldson knows anything about medical ethics as they are currently followed - these things evolve over time, and they might not be the same as the ones he would have been familiar with when he was younger.

But there are some pretty damned big ethical questions about the way Linden practices medicine in the Land, whether the author himself is even aware of it or not.

[emotional leper]

Malfi, I'm fairly sure you're incorrect. I don't think you're capable of refusing life-saving treatment in emergency situations.

[IrrationalSanity]

Let's not forget also that Linden was in full possession of her Health Sense, magnified and focused by the Staff. She would have been quite capable of knowing Pitchwife's true desires at that point. Consider the last words he utters in the book: "Linden Averey! Have I not said that you are well Chosen?"

[Ur Dead]

"Linden Avery! Have I not said that you are well Chosen?"

And Whom is going to argue with a Giant!

[emotional leper]

"Linden Avery! Have I not said that you are well Chosen?"

And Whom is going to argue with a Giant!

I will. I don't know how the hell I'll stay awake long enough, but I'll try.

I imagine it'd be like arguing with an ent. Or the TV.

[dlbpharmd]

Malfi, I'm fairly sure you're incorrect. I don't think you're capable of refusing life-saving treatment in emergency situations.

Assuming mental competence, any patient may refuse any medical procedure at any time, regardless of the situation or consequences.

[iQuestor]

DoM said:

And I have no idea if Donaldson knows anything about medical ethics as they are currently followed - these things evolve over time, and they might not be the same as the ones he would have been familiar with when he was younger.

yeah, its like, like he making this stuff up as he goes along.

seriously, its a fantasy story. We just can't apply our social constructs to those people in the Land. Yes, i agree Linden should not have healed Stave against his wishes, but who said protagonists have to always be right in every conceivable way in this or any story? Why must it a failure of the Author if she doesnt conform to medical regulations while healing in the Land? Did you consider that SRD had her do these things for a reason? If we want to get technical, there all all kinds of legal problems with her even touching anyone without gloves or a face mask, doing surgery without approved equipment, sterilization procedures, practicing medicine in a country/state/place/dimension where she doesnt have a local license, etc. I am sure we could write a book just on all the laws she broke. But, that isn't the point, is it?

Yes, she would be in trouble if she did the same in Berenford County memorial -- and yes, its questionable whether she should have done so without his consent -- but again, whats your point? Thomas Covenant would have also faced some serious legal consequences if he raped Lena back at Haven Farm, and he is the central protagonist of the series. Do we then say Donaldson must not be aware of laws against rape or forced sex?

Linden healed Stave against his wishes because it was part of the story, part of her character development -- she knew she was doing wrong when she did it, she just didn't care about his bloodline or philosophy, she felt she knew better than he did and could not conceive of his viewpoint or the consequences it would have for him; think about her background -- she watched her father commit suicide, and then killed her mother, part out of mercy, part out of disgust. She isn't a Doctor for purely moral reasons, her need to heal isn't because she is pure and good through and through, she is a flawed individual and the healing of Stave against his wished is part of that flaw coming through. SRD was making a point. Linden was a skilled physician, but the nature of her flaws are the reason she ended up with TC in the Land in the first place. She likes the power to heal and has always gone after what she wants, no matter the cost.

[emotional leper]

Malfi, I'm fairly sure you're incorrect. I don't think you're capable of refusing life-saving treatment in emergency situations.

Assuming mental competence, any patient may refuse any medical procedure at any time, regardless of the situation or consequences.

Assuming mental competence. However, couldn't refusal of life-saving procedures be considered a sign of incompetence?

Also, I was fairly sure EMTs didn't have to bow to one's wishes on whether or not they want treatment.

[duchess of malfi]

Also, I was fairly sure EMTs didn't have to bow to one's wishes on whether or not they want treatment.

Yes, actually - the law says that they do. If you do not want the treatment and can communicate that - they have to stop.

I realize that this is a fantasy book.

But it adds a complete level of debate about ethics, legalities, and morality to the discussion if we bring real life situations into it, doesn't it?

And there are plenty of reasons people might want to turn down possibly life saving treatments. Some religious groups turn down blood products, for example. Others turn down organ transplants. Sometimes a cancer patient will turn down chemotherapy on the grounds that they feel that their time is up and they do not want to deal with the side affects from the medictions in the time they have left.

Stave would have turned down the healing on cultural gounds, for example.

And in our world it would not matter if the healing made Pitch happy - since she never asked him it would still be illegal, unethical, and immoral. Someone cannot make choices like that for you people, unless you are unable to communicate your wishes.

[kevinswatch]

Linden totally needs to get her ass sued... Maybe the series will end with a dramatic court scene?-jay

[dlbpharmd]

Malfi, I'm fairly sure you're incorrect. I don't think you're capable of refusing life-saving treatment in emergency situations.

Assuming mental competence, any patient may refuse any medical procedure at any time, regardless of the situation or consequences.

Assuming mental competence. However, couldn't refusal of life-saving procedures be considered a sign of incompetence?

No, as Duchess described, there are many circumstances where competent patients refuse such treatment.

[emotional leper]

Assuming mental competence, any patient may refuse any medical procedure at any time, regardless of the situation or consequences.

Assuming mental competence. However, couldn't refusal of life-saving procedures be considered a sign of incompetence?

No, as Duchess described, there are many circumstances where competent patients refuse such treatment.

That's funny, because all the mental health professionals I talk to say a desire to die is a sign of mental illness...

[wayfriend]

Linden wasn't Pitchwife's doctor. After all that they had been through, she knew him. She was his friend. She knew his heart.

She had one final moment to use her power before she left the Land forever. Less than an instant. It was now or never. There wasn't time to ask. And so it was entirely in the "judgement call" area of decisions.

She was a healer right to the end. Her parting gift was a gift of healing. She was true to her truest self.

And she chose correctly.

If she had let the moment pass, because she felt that she did not have permission, would she have regretted it? Yes, of course. She finally, finally, had come into her own, and she only had that one moment to do something for her friends instead of for the Land. She could not waste it.

Anyone else would have come to the same decision. If you weigh the value of the opportunity and how small the window of opportunity was against the very low odds of misapprehending Pitchwife's willingness to be healed, the best choice is clear.

And besides, being cured by the Staff of Law has no known side effects.

[kevinswatch]

Of course a Linden Lover would think that. -jay