Some Questions for Discussion (SPOILER WARNING)(FOR REAL!)

[native]

Correction- we are told that Ceasures cant go back further than the breaking of the law of death/life. thats around 3500-7000 years. Do we know that there werent any Demondim in the time of Mhorim?

They had the Illearth Stone. That would date them before the First Chronicles at least - though I think they were all killed by Kevin anyway.

[The Dreaming]

Did anyone else think it was waaaaayyyy too convenient for Esmer to be able to remove the Giant's gift of tongues bequeathed by the Elohim?

Yeah, I noticed that too. The Demondim-spawn must be trying to tell her something pretty damn important to the plot

[Believer]

so...

caerroill wildwood wrote the knowledge of life and death into the staff. presumably he saw that the staff was created without those laws, since they had already been broken when the staff was created, and his design was that linden should restore the laws of life/death in her present?

how awful it must be for her to finally accomplish her goal and the first thing tc says is, what have you done?

i assume it's that ripping him from the arch of time weakens time enough that the worm is wakened, and all that. or else the krill allowed her to magnify the power of white gold with the SoL, so that she had enough power to break the arch, and taking TC back to life was enough power for that... or she is the rightful wielder of white gold.

i know it mentions that kevin's dirt was designed to weaken the use of earthpower, but was it revealed who unleashed it? was it kastenessen? i either missed it or it wasn't explicitly stated.

i'm not sure i see that esmer's telling linden to be the first to drink the earthblood was a betrayal. her command to see the truth seemed like one of the safest things she could ask for, unless maybe you consider that it might have been unearned knowledge. but it wasn't exactly lore, so i don't think that applies.

i wonder what she was 'supposed' to have done. if the dead were silent... what choices could she have made?

i assume they'll find a way to un-rouse the worm, given that there are two more books to go. and also i'd think that kenaustin ardenol can be summoned in the present... it seems he has the ability to transcend time, at least in terms of knowledge if not actual presence. either that or linden is going to go back to the past... i can't imagine that she realizes what her name is and never uses that knowledge.

that's my thoughts for now... was wonderful reading them book basically in one sitting

[The Dreaming]

i know it mentions that kevin's dirt was designed to weaken the use of earthpower, but was it revealed who unleashed it? was it kastenessen? i either missed it or it wasn't explicitly stated.

It was explicitly stated. Esmer told Lindon he helped Kastenessen make it.

I'm not sure Lindon's choice is as disasterous as it seems. After all, Cear Caveral revived Hollian, and the Land turned out pretty much ok. (I guess) It's certainly not as disasterous as it could have been.

I think the *real* reason LF is pleased by this development is that Covenant as the Timewarden was doing something specific to foil him, and now Foul will start having a more direct hand in events. He is also placing Covenant nearer to the White Gold, I don't think it is a stretch to speculate that he will eventually be given Joan's ring.

However, Foul always thinks Covenant is playing right into his hands, when Covenant defeats him. I really wish I didnt know that the good guys were going to win it would be a shrewder mystery.

[Aleksandr]

They had the Illearth Stone. That would date them before the First Chronicles at least - though I think they were all killed by Kevin anyway.

The Demondim definitely are pre-First Chron. But I now think that Esmer can move through time without a caesure as the Mahdoubt and probably the Elohim can. So he could have brough them forward by some other means.
More of a problem is their own Caesure by which they tap the Ill-Earth Stone. How did they learn to master caesures when there were none in their own era? And while the Ill-Earth Stone was not destroyed until seven years after the breaking of the Law of Death wouldn't Lord Foul have noticed someone tapping into the Stone in his thronehall with a caesure?

[iQuestor]

Did anyone else think it was waaaaayyyy too convenient for Esmer to be able to remove the Giant's gift of tongues bequeathed by the Elohim?

Well, again, he is the grandson of an elohim, and the Insequent hate him as much as they hate the Elohim, so it stands to reason that he might have the power to influence a gift bestowed upon the Giants by the elohim.

The Theomach had some power over time, because he met Roger and Linden in the past, actually swerved them away from their destination. I think the Mahdoubt was a master at time, but why then did she serve so long at Revelstone 'waiting for the Lady'? Why not do like all the other insequent did: light a fire in some conspicuous place, sit in front of it, and wait for her to come? I guess it was that Linden first needed to Staff and the knowledge she gained along the way to Revelstone, epsecially about the Lands Past, the Waynhim, the Ur-VIles, The Ramen and Ranyhyn, Esmer, and all that.

I also wonder it Theomach is dead or merely beaten. I think he is at least accesible to Linden. I think it is a profound point that was made earlier that The Theomach told Linden she knew his real name. If the Insequent experience linear time, then he either survived after being beaten as Guardian, or it hasnt happened to him yet in whatever sequence they do experience time (if it has sequence at all. -- but The Mahdoubt's song in Garroting Deep implies that they do experience a sequence. )

i'm not sure i see that esmer's telling linden to be the first to drink the earthblood was a betrayal. her command to see the truth seemed like one of the safest things she could ask for, unless maybe you consider that it might have been unearned knowledge. but it wasn't exactly lore, so i don't think that applies.

I remember Esmer saying that his 'blood yearned to support her' because he was Cail's son; but the Elohim in him is guided by Kastennassen, his Grandfather. If it was a betrayal, in my opinion, it wasnt known by Esmer, who was led to beleive it was the right thing. It was likely a plot by Kastennassen and Foul.

But, then again, Romeo is pretty close to the source and I would submit to his interpretation.

The access of the Demondim to the Illearth Stone is a connundrum; I think that an excellent point made earlier is that Foul would surely notice the drain if the access did in fact coincide with his ownership while it lay in Foul's Creche. Earlier access should have been denied since Ceasures cant travel back further than the breaking of the Law.

Perhaps their access was to a fragment, such as the one lost that was later regained by StoneMight Woodhelvin?

[aliantha]

I like the theory that Esmer, the rest of the Elohim, and other folks have ways of time-traveling other than caesures.

I agree that the Theomach isn't truly dead and could come back. He wouldn't have made such a big point of telling Linden that she knows his name unless she was going to need to call on him later.

I miss the Mahdoubt already....

I see y'all's point about harnessing the Illearth Stone with the caesure. But it's not like Foul had it sitting next to him while he sat on his throne the whole time, is it? It could be that they're tapping it during a time when it was out of Foul's sight, or when his power was diminished in the Land. (I don't have a specific time frame in mind -- just speculating.)

I'm not surprised that the Elohim didn't want Linden to use the krill. They haven't *ever* wanted TC's power involved directly in events, unless Linden was wielding the ring. Infelice must be beside herself with dismay, now that Linden has brought TC back to life, and now that TC could conceivably wield his own ring again -- and knowing what he knows now about wild magic, after millennia as the keystone of the Arch -- ooooooo! This could be very entertaining! (At least until the Arch of Time crumbles due to the lack of its keystone...)

[Dagonet]

Regarding the Demondim and the Illearth Stone: It was my impression that they were able to tweak their Fall so that it didn't behave as usual. I mean, a caesure normally forces every instant of time that's taken place within its radius (at least as far back as the breaking of the Law of Death/Life) to exist simulaneously, right? That sort of temporal scrambling wouldn't be useful to the Demondim; they still require corporeal forms to interact with the world, and they're still subject to cause and effect. I've assumed that they've managed to stabilize their Fall (lore granted by Esmer?), causing it to function as a doorway to a specific moment in the (deep) past, a direct link to the Illearth Stone long before Drool retrieved it. The Fall isn't actually sucking up time from that point. so no danger to the Arch.

Cheers,

Dagonet

[aliantha]

Maybe Esmer created the Fall and/or stabilized it for them.

[sidpcobain]

I really wish I didnt know that the good guys were going to win.

Are you sure they are? I'm not expecting a happy ending this time.

[PannionDude]

1. Elohim would stop them. They need Linden there so that the Elohim will believe that she'll handle stopping them. Further, Berek + his surrounds are under the Theomach's protection, he's paid prices to be able to protect the time stream in that area.

2. Brin has already killed the Theomach. Linden can't summon him.

3. Infelice can't stop Linden because Linden is in Andalain, Infelice will be expelled if she tries. She can't stop Linden earlier because Linden is the WildWeilder in the Elohim's eyes, so she just tries to have Linden turned away.

Insequent re: Time Travel

Mahdoubt and Vizard can do time stuff, none of the others can, is my understanding. Harrow certainly can't, he can do Demondim related stuff, but not time fu.

[native]

And while the Ill-Earth Stone was not destroyed until seven years after the breaking of the Law of Death wouldn't Lord Foul have noticed someone tapping into the Stone in his thronehall with a caesure?

It can really only be that they are tapping into it at a point where the Demondin possessed it - which is to say before the First Chronicles.

[Mortice Root]

I've got a couple of questions that I wanted to toss out there and see what you all thought.

First - Roger and the Croyel's ability to time travel. Where does this come from? It certainly made sense as part of the TC masquerade, but Roger doesn't have access to white gold, and I got the impression that Jeremiah's doors were physical rather than temporal. So does the time travel come from Kastenessen's hand that Roger was been grafted with? Certainly his ability to disguise himself seems very Elohim-like, but I don't remember the Elohim having a time travel ability before. (Unless you count Esmer, though he's a bit removed from the source). Everything I remember from the second chrons, implied that Elohim had the ability to shape matter, and travel great distances, but I never got the sense that Findail or Infelice or the others could time travel. So where does Roger get this mojo?

Second - The Vizard, alive or dead? Roger and Jeremiah/Croyel seem to speak of him as alive, discussing his desire for Jeremiah to cage the Elohim. But after her confrontation with the Harrow, the Mahdoubt indicates that he (Vizard) is dead. Now, Roger and Jeremiah/Croyel could just be lying, though I'm not sure I see how that lie would help them. Alternately, the Mahdoubt could be mistaken or misleading, possibly caused by her impeding death. I'm not sure, though I have a feeling we'll be seeing him down the line. What do you guys think?

[MrKABC]

Linden knows the Theomach's name... it is Kenaustin Ardenol. She reflects toward the end of FR that she has known his name for ten years. However, I believe he is dead and beyond her command.

I believe Linden screwed up - (one of many times) in not asking the Mahdoubt for the Harrow's true name before she died. THAT would have strengthened her bargaining ability, no?

I think the Vizard is dead. He is referred to in the past tense toward the end of FR. However, that doesn't mean we won't encounter him, especially if there is more time travel to come.

ROTE (and FR as well) make reference to the Demondim tapping the strength of the Illearth Stone while it was still buried, before Drool Rockworm dug it up.

Kevin's Dirt was created by Esmer and Kastenessen, and it arises from Mount Thunder. Time to go clean out the Lost Deep!

There were no Demondim at the time of High Lord Mhoram. The Demondim were all destroyed by the Ritual of Desecration, over 1000 years prior to the New Lords.

[Astavyastataa Kadna]

...
i assume they'll find a way to un-rouse the worm, given that there are two more books to go.

Tequila! LOTS of Tequila!!

[Astavyastataa Kadna]

As to whether Esmer betrayed Linden saying drink first ... let's look at the possibilities:

• 1) Roger drinks first - wakes the Worm
  2) Linden drinks first - does ANYTHING else

What do you think is less damaging!!

Although if I were Linden I would have said "Give me the ability to always see and hear Truth!" It would have been more enduring and given her the ability to speak to the ur-viles.

But Linden is a little sllllooooowwwww ...

[Romeo]

If it was really Roger's intent to drink the Earthblood and rouse the worm, why did they wait inside the water fall for her to catch up? When she finally stumbled through, why didn't they just stick a knife in her back? I think they *knew* that the Elohim would have stopped them even as they were bending down to take a drink. The whole thing was carefuly crafted so that Linden would drink first and Command what she would in order to push her over the edge into despair - so that she would ultimately do what she did at the end of the book.

[dlbpharmd]

Romeo is correct - Roger needed Linden to drink first, make her Command then get out of his way.

This was one of Lord Foul's many stratagems.

[Romeo]

I think this is the real genius of the story (and I'm sure we don't even know the whole story and plot yet). Linden was pushed into her decisions every step of the way. They wanted her to trust Covenant and Jeremiah enough to follow them to the past, but have enough doubts that she would Command just what she did (that prompt from Esmer - which is why I believe it was a betrayal). She was practically given the Staff at the beginning of Runes (Esmer brought her the ceasure to help her go back), and ever since then her enemies have made it a point to demonstrate to her that her power is not enough - it does not suffice for saving her son and the Land. She's herded into her decision at the end of the book.

BUT, I also think that this might not be the tragedy that it appears to be. I think it possible that the good guys wanted her to do this as well. The Mahdoubt knew what would happen in Earthroot, but didn't intervene. And she even said after it was over that her enemies did that to her in order to make her despair - so she even knew (or guessed at) the direction Linden would now take. The Theomach knew what was going on but did nothing except provide her the tools (7 of them) to make it through the ordeal.

[aliantha]

I think this is the real genius of the story (and I'm sure we don't even know the whole story and plot yet). Linden was pushed into her decisions every step of the way. They wanted her to trust Covenant and Jeremiah enough to follow them to the past, but have enough doubts that she would Command just what she did (that prompt from Esmer - which is why I believe it was a betrayal). She was practically given the Staff at the beginning of Runes (Esmer brought her the ceasure to help her go back), and ever since then her enemies have made it a point to demonstrate to her that her power is not enough - it does not suffice for saving her son and the Land. She's herded into her decision at the end of the book.

BUT, I also think that this might not be the tragedy that it appears to be. I think it possible that the good guys wanted her to do this as well. The Mahdoubt knew what would happen in Earthroot, but didn't intervene. And she even said after it was over that her enemies did that to her in order to make her despair - so she even knew (or guessed at) the direction Linden would now take. The Theomach knew what was going on but did nothing except provide her the tools (7 of them) to make it through the ordeal.

Exactly. And Caerroil Wildwood not only let her live, but he finished the Staff for her. I think his role is going to be key. It doesn't make sense to me that the US cover art would be based on a cameo appearance.