Join the Crusade -- HOOKERS!

[emotional leper]

(And a pscycho who murdered her mother with a bunch of Kleenex.)

i'm still working through that.

That's one of the hottest things about Linden! Not only do you Thoolah people not get Linden, you don't get TC! I completely understand how, after just hearing that this hot chick had choked her dying mother to death with kleenex, TC would want to sleep with her.

I would do the same thing.

Linden's hot.

[stormrider]

(And a pscycho who murdered her mother with a bunch of Kleenex.)

i'm still working through that.

How can anyone possibly work through that? She gauzed her mother for god’s sake!!!

And that’s one of the (many) things that bothers me so much about the way SRD talks about her. On several occasions, he writes things along the lines of, “But she wasn’t a killer, she was a doctor and had devoted her entire life to saving lives.” And yet, in the literal sense of the word, she is a killer. She just also happens to be a doctor.

Okay, so if you like Linden now because of FR, do you think you'll still like her when you go back and read the Second Chronicles? Or do you think her behavior will annoy you just as much as it used to?

(I'm very saddened by your defection to the other side, by the way. Linden supporters... I'll never understand.)

That's one of the hottest things about Linden! Not only do you Thoolah people not get Linden, you don't get TC! I completely understand how, after just hearing that this hot chick had choked her dying mother to death with kleenex, TC would want to sleep with her.

I would do the same thing.

Linden's hot.

…What’s sexy about killing someone with tissues? There are much sexier ways of killing people.

[emotional leper]

I'm just pointing out that you THOOLAH people don't understand either of the main characters.

[Linna Heartbooger]

And that’s one of the (many) things that bothers me so much about the way SRD talks about her. On several occasions, he writes things along the lines of, “But she wasn’t a killer, she was a doctor and had devoted her entire life to saving lives.” And yet, in the literal sense of the word, she is a killer. She just also happens to be a doctor.

I don't believe Donaldson makes any such claim about her.

Isn't it true that whenever those sorts of lines show up, he's writing from Linden's POV? It's her internal narration.

[Relayer]

Isn't it true that whenever those sorts of lines show up, he's writing from Linden's POV? It's her internal narration.

Exactly.

[wayfriend]

How can anyone possibly work through that? She gauzed her mother for god’s sake!!!

Gee, is that better or worse than raping someone, destroying your child, or nearly extinctifying a species? Covenant did some baaaad things. And yet, he gets a break.

On several occasions, he writes things along the lines of, “But she wasn’t a killer, she was a doctor and had devoted her entire life to saving lives.”

Agreement with Lina H.

She may have killed, but she doesn't consider herself a killer, or at least not any more. Necessarilly part of her "working through that".

…What’s sexy about killing someone with tissues?

No! No! Don't ask EL THAT! :run: :run: :run:

[emotional leper]

…What’s sexy about killing someone with tissues?

No! No! Don't ask EL THAT! :run: :run: :run:

I'm working on a pamphlet. I'm currently on page 305. Unfortunately, I've written it as an epic poem detailing Linden's many virtues.

"Be to her virtues, very kind/and to her faults, a little blind..."

Crazy women are hot. Wondering if this will be the moment your lover tries to kill you adds a certain spice to sex that I find exhilarating.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

…What’s sexy about killing someone with tissues?

No! No! Don't ask EL THAT! :run: :run: :run:

I would think that nothing is sexy about the killing, at least from the tissue's point of view.

dw

[Mithyaat Vam]

(And a pscycho who murdered her mother with a bunch of Kleenex.)

i'm still working through that.

How can anyone possibly work through that? She gauzed her mother for god’s sake!!!

says the man with the alex avatar!

[Linna Heartbooger]

Agreement with Lina H.

She may have killed, but she doesn't consider herself a killer, or at least not any more. Necessarilly part of her "working through that".

If you're saying that Linden has been "working through that," I disagree. I think that Linden at the beginning of TWL has worked through the murder... probably no more than Covenant has "worked through" the rape of Lena at the beginning of TIW.

On the contrary, I think she is very much under the power of her guilt, though it may have driven her to do any number of good things. (driven her through med school, etc.) Remember TC's thesis on guilt that we see at the beginning of TWL? I think it applies here.

Remember how Linden was evasive in her reasons for why she wanted to work at a hospital in a small hick town like that? I think she is working out her own, personally-assigned penance.

[lucimay]

no. i was saying I was working through that. it was more or less a joke.
more than less.

he was saying he didn't understand how we could love a woman who would kill her mother by stuffing kleenex down her throat and i was, in my oh so witty manner, saying that i was "working through that" as if to say that the kleenex murder was my only obstacle in truly loving linden.

a joke's no good if you have to explain it.

[wayfriend]

If you're saying that Linden has been "working through that," I disagree. I think that Linden at the beginning of TWL has worked through the murder... probably no more than Covenant has "worked through" the rape of Lena at the beginning of TIW.

I'm of the opinion that she didn't get over her childhood until WGW, when she became a person who could do the right thing with power. Wasn't that what her whole character arc in the second Chronicles about?

[High Lord Tolkien]

a joke's no good if you have to explain it.

But what if it sucked to begin with?

[Linna Heartbooger]

no. i was saying I was working through that. it was more or less a joke.
more than less.

Pfft! I knew you were saying that rather tongue-in-cheek... but if Wayfriend was using the same sarcasm in his post, then I missed it...

Sorry I accidentally made you explain your joke... Though I should warn you, I do take people overly literally sometimes... so this may be a recurring theme. *sigh* You may have noticed that already though.

[emotional leper]

a joke's no good if you have to explain it.

But what if it sucked to begin with?

What if that was the joke?

Or maybe it's some sort of metajoke on the nature of jokes...

[stormrider]

How can anyone possibly work through that? She gauzed her mother for god’s sake!!!

Gee, is that better or worse than raping someone, destroying your child, or nearly extinctifying a species? Covenant did some baaaad things. And yet, he gets a break.

No, no, no, Covenant does not get a free pass from me for his mistakes. Some of them were pretty disgusting, and he frustrated me a lot the first time I read LFB and TIW; however, I like him as a character, which is why I don’t dwell on all the awful things he did. If I liked Linden in general, I wouldn’t pick on her for her mistakes either. But she happens to be, in my opinion... well, just awful.

By the way, the fact that Linden gauzed her mother is not my main reason for disliking her. I just think it's amusing and bizarre, which is why I bring it up. So the “she gauzed her mother” comment wasn’t meant to be a serious accusation that required rebutting. (Ah, curse the internet and my inability to properly convey "tone of voice" and emphasis through a written medium!)

On several occasions, he writes things along the lines of, “But she wasn’t a killer, she was a doctor and had devoted her entire life to saving lives.”

I don't believe Donaldson makes any such claim about her.

Perhaps not, but I tend to think that (though he would, of course, be realistic about it) Donaldson would be more inclined to view Linden positively. I would be surprised if he honestly considered her a “killer.” While he naturally remembers that she’s killed someone, I’d imagine he probably views her, overall, as “a doctor” (albeit an emotionally damaged one, who has way too many issues for her own good) “who has devoted her entire life to saving lives."

But maybe I'm just bitter because he apparently likes Linden more than Covenant.

Yeah. Mostly bitterness.

Isn't it true that whenever those sorts of lines show up, he's writing from Linden's POV? It's her internal narration.

Which means that her internal narration is fundamentally flawed. And yes, the natural comeback to that statement is, “But everyone has a biased/flawed view of themselves and the world – it’s unavoidable.” And that’s true, but I’d like to think that if I intentionally killed someone (even if that person really had it coming), I would be unable to forget that transgression for the rest of my life. Even if I became a doctor, it would always be in the back of my mind that I murdered someone. I certainly hope I wouldn’t be sufficiently deluded to think to myself, “Oh, but I’m not a killer...”

[Linna Heartbooger]

But maybe I'm just bitter because he apparently likes Linden more than Covenant.

Dude... you need to re-read the first couple of chapters of TWL. Her intentional self-delusion was annoying me to, but when I was reading it, I felt like it was so obvious, SRD painted it in such a way that anyone could see right through it... and the way Covenant was dealing with her, I imagined hearing his (and SRD's) sarcastic laughter in the background, as he/SRD thought, "You 'don't believe in evil.' Oh-kay. Someone's got a reason she doesn't want to believe in evil."

Which means that her internal narration is fundamentally flawed. And yes, the natural comeback to that statement is, “But everyone has a biased/flawed view of themselves and the world – it’s unavoidable.”

Yes. Actually, I don't excuse her for that.

I think my view of her is similar to your view of Covenant. The things she has done are totally inexcusable. I think you just found more things to empathize with Covenant about from the outset. While I fiercely empathized with his unrelieved aloneness in the "real world"... I had trouble dealing with his reactions to the Land.

Linden.. I was pissed about her self-inflicted lies that she nurtured within herself in the "real world," (esp. when there was such an obvious contradiction - the fact that she is miserable and lacking) but I understood her inward-hiding self-pity once her senses are brutally assailed up by the ill/evil of the Land (and Covenant's venom/self). I am soooo frickin' impressed (envious, really) with how fast she is learning her lessons. She realizes what it's all about, and WHY she is "going forward." Cool. (but then, I'm only 60pp into TOT cause our librarians have been on strike for the past 12 weeks - it's over, halleluliah!)[/quote]

[stormrider]

But maybe I'm just bitter because he apparently likes Linden more than Covenant.

Dude... you need to re-read the first couple of chapters of TWL. Her intentional self-delusion was annoying me to, but when I was reading it, I felt like it was so obvious, SRD painted it in such a way that anyone could see right through it... and the way Covenant was dealing with her, I imagined hearing his (and SRD's) sarcastic laughter in the background, as he/SRD thought, "You 'don't believe in evil.' Oh-kay. Someone's got a reason she doesn't want to believe in evil."

Yeah, but I was thinking about his response to the question, "Which is your favorite character." He didn't say anything like, "Oh yeah, Linden is definitely my best character," but the way he talked about her made me think he sort of held her apart from most of the others. I don't think he even mentioned Covenant.

Which means that her internal narration is fundamentally flawed. And yes, the natural comeback to that statement is, “But everyone has a biased/flawed view of themselves and the world – it’s unavoidable.”

Yes. Actually, I don't excuse her for that.

I think my view of her is similar to your view of Covenant. The things she has done are totally inexcusable. I think you just found more things to empathize with Covenant about from the outset. While I fiercely empathized with his unrelieved aloneness in the "real world"... I had trouble dealing with his reactions to the Land.

Actually, I don't know that empathy had much to do with it at first. What initially interested me was his leprosy -- that's a rather unique affliction for the lead character of a fantasy series to have. It strikes me as being far more interesting than, say, a woman who had to watch her dad kill himself. It also made it a lot more difficult for me to judge Covenant for some of his actions, because it was difficult for me to put myself in his position. (I think I may have said something like this on another thread a couple of months ago, but I'm not sure.) I've never had leprosy, nor have I ever met anyone who had leprosy, nor have I even or met anyone else who had ever met anyone who had leprosy -- so when he did things like raping a teenage girl (who he thought was just part of his delusion), I didn't, for some reason, feel as disgusted as I would have if any other type of character (like some guy with an awful childhood, who was beaten by his father every day) had done the same thing. Conversely, although Linden's past was horrible, I've known quite a few people who had similarly ghastly things happen to them -- and they don't act like Linden. So it's much easier to judge her harshly.

And in my opinion, she just didn't handle things as well as Covenant. In LFB, Covenant appears on Kevin's Watch and quickly makes a decision -- he thinks it's a dream/delusion, but he decides to, "keep going, see what happens." He shows no signs of paralysis. On Kevin's Watch in TWL, she acts like she's about to go into shock, or something -- and she was better off than he was the first time he appeared in the Land; I mean, at least she had someone from the "real world" there with her. He was completely alone. But she just sits there saying, "This is not normal..." Fortunately, TC was there to try to explain things to her. Who knows what she would have done if he hadn't been there? She might have gone postal and jumped.

Ah, if only...

[Linna Heartbooger]

Okay, nm, there is no point in continuing this discussion. You're just hopeless. Seriously.

You see, I just read the chapter "Father's Child" for the first time a few hours ago and was totally blown away. So there's realllllllly no point for the two of us to keep arguing. Because, given what you said, I don't think it's humanly possible for us to explain our POV's to each other.

And yeah, I guess I probably was wrong about my "which char you empathized/identified with" theory.

However... since I haven't looked through alot of the Gradual Interview on his website... now I need to look for the one where you described SRD as "setting Linden apart from his other chars."

[wayfriend]

You know, I was listening to some election coverage, and one of the ideas that came up is that, if you don't like someone, you'll find a reason to not like them, and that'll be your explanation. But it won't really be the reason, if you know what I mean. Sometimes the real reason is very irrational, or something that you don't want to admit. For example, a lot of people don't like the idea of a woman president, but they won't say that, they'll pick something else about Hillary, like her health care plan, and say that that is the reason they won't vote for her.

So I wonder how much that applies to Linden Avery.