Oh, HLT, you are gonna love/hate me for this. I recently had several conversations which have led me to post this.
It is IMHO that this last chronicles is very much about Linden. I realize that TC is back but this is how I view it. Linden Avery watched her father kill himself, he blamed her because she didn't love him enough. BAM childhood angst button installed. She then spends the rest of her childhood and teenage years having this programming reinstalled over and over and over again by her mother. Finally she reaches the point that she kills her mother. She justifies it by making her mind believe she is "helping" her mother. Who did she help? Herself. She then becomes a doctor so that she can "help" other people. What is the real reason? So that she can feel worthwhile. She spends the whole second chrons thinking she is helping but she honestly doesn't know how to help. She thinks she has learned to love, but the truth is her love is incomplete. This is proved in the end of the chrons when she tries to possess Covenant not once but twice. She tries to possess him the first time not for the gain of the land but because she wants to keep him for herself, she can't stand to lose him.
" Don't do this to yourself.
Throught the link between them, he knew that she was weeping wildly. But behind her pain shone a fervid passion. She would not permit him to end in this way. Not allow him to go willingly out of her life.
I can't let you.
He understood her. How could he not? She was too vulnerable to everything. She saw that his control was almost gone. And his purpose must have been transparent to her; his desperation was too extreme to elude her discernment. She was trying to save him.
You mean too much.
But this was not salvation; it was doom. She had misinterpreted his need for her."
She is trying to save her father, not TC and she is doing it not for the love of the land, rather in spite of the land, in risk of damning the land, and she is willing to sacrifice everything TC now believes in and everything he has accomplished just to keep him with her. SELFISH.
She goes back to our reality. What does she do? She starts a hospital for mental patients and adopts an unresponsive son. Why? Because she can tell herself she is doing this for them but it is really a way to justify her survival, her existence. It is also a way to do this without having to truly interact with those closest to her, Joan and Jeremiah. It even allows her to martyr herself in her mind.
Now she is back in the land and the only thing she "cares" about is saving her "braindead" son. She is willing to do this at the expense of the survival of the Land. Why? Is it for Jeremiah who can't even comprehend the simplest things? NO, it's for her alone. Everything she does is all about her and her needs and whoever gets caught up in her needs is fair game. Why does she call Thomas Covenant? because she needs/wants him. Let me quote, "Now, Covenant, I need you. I need your help. I need to get you back." His first response is what? "OH Linden, what have you done? " TC managed to hold back Foul by self sacrifice. Linden just opened the door to the Arch of Time out of selfishness. Ugh. What was she thinking? She does manage to justify this to herself in her internal monologues but HELLO! The mahdoubt even flat out tells her that Jeremiah was touched by Foul LONG AGO. IMHO these first two books are all about Linden and her selfishness. I hope she can be saved.
Linden Avery - Selfish Monster
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Cameraman Jenn
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Linden Avery - Selfish Monster
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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onewyteduck
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I'm along with you on this one.
Also, don't forget her demands that people trust her and talk to her, give her answers while she's refusing to return the favor. There's also her determination to "take care" of Anele when it's been made pretty clear he's been taking care of himself for thousands of years.
As you point out, she was warned by The Mahdoubt. She was also warned by the The Ranyhan, Hollian, and Covenant himself.
And as a side note, I've spent the last 30 years working with physicians who are almost all invariably arrogant control freaks!
That's my
Edit: I wanted to add that up until FR, I've been pretty neutral on the love/hate Linden issue. FR put me in the hater's camp.
Also, don't forget her demands that people trust her and talk to her, give her answers while she's refusing to return the favor. There's also her determination to "take care" of Anele when it's been made pretty clear he's been taking care of himself for thousands of years.
As you point out, she was warned by The Mahdoubt. She was also warned by the The Ranyhan, Hollian, and Covenant himself.
And as a side note, I've spent the last 30 years working with physicians who are almost all invariably arrogant control freaks!
That's my
Edit: I wanted to add that up until FR, I've been pretty neutral on the love/hate Linden issue. FR put me in the hater's camp.
Be kind to your web-footed friends, for a duck may be somebody's mother.
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Mortice Root
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Jenn, by and large, I agree with you. Certainly since ROTE came out, the chrons for me, have taken a different feel as a whole. 1st chrons is TC's story, 2nd chrons is a transition, and Last Chrons is Linden's. FR has pretty much bourne that out so far.
Yes, the vast majority of Linden's actions in the Last Chrons so far have been mostly motivated by selfishness. One could debate however, whether her consuming selfish desire for her son, is any different from the actions of any other mother toward their children that we would term selfless and self-sacrificing. When you don't or can't know the feelings or desires of the recipient of these acts, it's hard to know where to draw the line. Are Linden's acts for Jeremiah, or are they for her need for Jeremiah. I tend to think they're the later.
I'm not sure I would characterize all of her actions as selfish though. I don't think the removal of the Sunbane had any selfish motivation.
Oh, and to be clear, I love Linden as a character. I don't think I could handle actually being around her, but I do like reading about her.
Yes, the vast majority of Linden's actions in the Last Chrons so far have been mostly motivated by selfishness. One could debate however, whether her consuming selfish desire for her son, is any different from the actions of any other mother toward their children that we would term selfless and self-sacrificing. When you don't or can't know the feelings or desires of the recipient of these acts, it's hard to know where to draw the line. Are Linden's acts for Jeremiah, or are they for her need for Jeremiah. I tend to think they're the later.
I'm not sure I would characterize all of her actions as selfish though. I don't think the removal of the Sunbane had any selfish motivation.
Oh, and to be clear, I love Linden as a character. I don't think I could handle actually being around her, but I do like reading about her.
OK, first post so here we go....
First, one thing to consider is the fact that as far as Linden is concerned, both she and her son are dead in the "real world". If, as you say, her only motivation is to save her son, then she canot be blind to the potential destruction of the Land. The Land, for Linden and her son, is the ONLY place that they can continue to exist. Therefore, if she wishes to save her son, she must also preserve the Land.
And second, her son is not "braindead" and in this newbie's opinion, not unworthy of saving. As a mom, I am not surprised in the least by her overriding need to get to him and save him from unrelenting torture.
*phew* Ok, now that's over with....
First, one thing to consider is the fact that as far as Linden is concerned, both she and her son are dead in the "real world". If, as you say, her only motivation is to save her son, then she canot be blind to the potential destruction of the Land. The Land, for Linden and her son, is the ONLY place that they can continue to exist. Therefore, if she wishes to save her son, she must also preserve the Land.
And second, her son is not "braindead" and in this newbie's opinion, not unworthy of saving. As a mom, I am not surprised in the least by her overriding need to get to him and save him from unrelenting torture.
*phew* Ok, now that's over with....
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Mortice Root
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Hi ginger - welcome to the watch! They tend to be pretty kind to newbies here (speaking from my recent experience 
)
ginger said
)ginger said
Ah, but Linden didn't know Jeremiah was dead in the real world until the reveal under Skywier. If I remember right, she was assuming he was alive, and would be translated back for all of ROTE and the first half of FR. So she wouldn't have been interested in saving the Land so that he had a place to exist, at least until the back half of FR.First, one thing to consider is the fact that as far as Linden is concerned, both she and her son are dead in the "real world". If, as you say, her only motivation is to save her son, then she canot be blind to the potential destruction of the Land. The Land, for Linden and her son, is the ONLY place that they can continue to exist. Therefore, if she wishes to save her son, she must also preserve the Land.
Mortice Root wrote:Hi ginger - welcome to the watch! They tend to be pretty kind to newbies here (speaking from my recent experience
Ah, but Linden didn't know Jeremiah was dead in the real world until the reveal under Skywier. If I remember right, she was assuming he was alive, and would be translated back for all of ROTE and the first half of FR. So she wouldn't have been interested in saving the Land so that he had a place to exist, at least until the back half of FR.
Thanks, mortice.
I'm just so glad there is a place to come and talk about the books, especially after reading FR...whatever your take on Linden, I think it was a great read. And no one I know IRL has read them! *GASP*But...back to Linden...your point about her not knowing that jeremiah was truly dead in the real world until somewhere in the second half of FR - that may be true, but her actions throughout were that of a mother desperate to rescue her son from horrific torture. I suggest that ANY mother would do the same, regardless of the cost. BUT - now that Linden DOES think (know?) that jeremiah is dead in the real world...well, now she has an overriding motivation not only to save him, but to also save the Land, for this will be the only place that he may continue to exist.
I also continue to disagree with the premise set forth in the OP that Jeremiah is "braindead" and thus not worthy of a mother's love (irrational as that love may be).
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onewyteduck
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Ginger!I might be willing to accept that Linden is acting to save her son as any mother would do (I'll leave whether he is "brain-dead" or not out of it, I don't think he is/was) except for the fact that she knew Jeremiah was dead by the time she reached Andelain.
She has risked The Land to save a DEAD child. As Linden liked to say, I do not forgive!
Still in all, there are 2 books to go (3 years? I can't stand it
) I grant it's possible she'll redeem herself.Be kind to your web-footed friends, for a duck may be somebody's mother.
Trying to save him, sure.... I think that's reasonable.
But, frankly, the cost should have surprised nobody at this point. Linden's been telling us since day one that she's quite prepared to save Jeremiah even if the cost is the destruction of the Land. And the Earth. She keeps on telling people this. People keep telling her this is a bad idea. Perhaps we shouldn't be upset when, well, it happens that way.
The question of motive becomes very important, though. I mentioned, way back when, the question of how this compares with Covenant sacrificing the Land (as it seems, in <em>The Power That Preserves</em>), to save a little girl. I think the difference here is that TC did that because the girl needed him, there was nobody else. The suggestion earlier in this topic that Linden is trying to save Jeremiah because <em>she</em> needs him rather than vice versa, is an important point.
Linden's letting her narcissism doom everything.
(And yet, Jeremiah's need is real, we can't ignore that, but somehow Linden is going about it the wrong way compared to Covenant.)
Thoughts?
But, frankly, the cost should have surprised nobody at this point. Linden's been telling us since day one that she's quite prepared to save Jeremiah even if the cost is the destruction of the Land. And the Earth. She keeps on telling people this. People keep telling her this is a bad idea. Perhaps we shouldn't be upset when, well, it happens that way.
The question of motive becomes very important, though. I mentioned, way back when, the question of how this compares with Covenant sacrificing the Land (as it seems, in <em>The Power That Preserves</em>), to save a little girl. I think the difference here is that TC did that because the girl needed him, there was nobody else. The suggestion earlier in this topic that Linden is trying to save Jeremiah because <em>she</em> needs him rather than vice versa, is an important point.
Linden's letting her narcissism doom everything.
(And yet, Jeremiah's need is real, we can't ignore that, but somehow Linden is going about it the wrong way compared to Covenant.)
Thoughts?
Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land... Only thus could I preserve the integrity of my creation.
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lurch
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Nope,, ain't buying it Jenn..Linden did run into the hollow , with lightning bouncing all around, Roger holding Jeremiah hostage, and the sheriffs deputies and all bearing down,,,this circumstance is not one of selfishness,,perhaps not aware of all the consequences and even fool hearty, but Linden actions are not of selfishness.. Seems to me the selected quotes you have used when taken in a slightly large context are more indicative of her coming to grips with her own limitations, which is part of the " self "defining process.
None of us can do everything,,or know everything. Therefore we have to seek and hopefully get input from friends, family and even profesionals while experiencing Life..Perhaps it is on this point,, of Linden basically being involved in relationships that are none reciprocal,,Loving a dead man and loving a non responsive child, that you see selfishness. I see a fear of Real give and take relationships,,After so much "loss" in her life,,the despair has driven her to make choices she is unequipped for,,she ran into a hollow blindy disregarding all the consequences..Not because she is selfish,, but because she has been driven to despair.
There seems to be parts of Last Chronicles and Fatal Revenant that are analogous to ..well.. divorce proceedings and the consequences of,,as in visitation rites and the effects of one parent over the other thru the child..Everytime Jerimiah says how much he likes the Glamorised Tom Convenant..and wants to stay with him etc etc..theres that " dig" of a parent using the child to get at the " divorced" other..So, selfishness is close to it, but imho , not quite on target,,Its closer to ..well being cut loose, after a divorce and fending for yourself for the first time, and having nobody to fall back on,, a Self Discovery situation.
None of us can do everything,,or know everything. Therefore we have to seek and hopefully get input from friends, family and even profesionals while experiencing Life..Perhaps it is on this point,, of Linden basically being involved in relationships that are none reciprocal,,Loving a dead man and loving a non responsive child, that you see selfishness. I see a fear of Real give and take relationships,,After so much "loss" in her life,,the despair has driven her to make choices she is unequipped for,,she ran into a hollow blindy disregarding all the consequences..Not because she is selfish,, but because she has been driven to despair.
There seems to be parts of Last Chronicles and Fatal Revenant that are analogous to ..well.. divorce proceedings and the consequences of,,as in visitation rites and the effects of one parent over the other thru the child..Everytime Jerimiah says how much he likes the Glamorised Tom Convenant..and wants to stay with him etc etc..theres that " dig" of a parent using the child to get at the " divorced" other..So, selfishness is close to it, but imho , not quite on target,,Its closer to ..well being cut loose, after a divorce and fending for yourself for the first time, and having nobody to fall back on,, a Self Discovery situation.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
pg4 TLD
Certainly a thought provoking post, Jenn. But I don't think it's as straight forward as that...and I'm now going to do a bad job trying to explain my thoughts on the topic.
I do agree that to a certain degree Linden is selfish. However, I think there's a difference between doing things because one is simply selfish and doing selfish things because one has been programmed by events in ones life to react in a given way.
I think Linden's life is all about control because of what happened in her childhood. Being locked in a room while your father bleeds out, being unable to do anything about it, being so helpless, would obviously have a profound affect on anyone. Being unable to change it makes it worse. Feeling you're responsible (that Linden did not love her father enough and that's the reason he killed himself) is terrible. Her father dead, she can't prove to him she did love him "enough" nor can he reassure her that what she thinks is wrong. It's a ludicrous situation for a child to be put in, a terrible thing for a child to feel, to believe. By the time someone could rationalise with Linden it wasn't *her* fault, the hurt by then was buried too deeply inside her. It'll probably always be there there.
So Linden is profoundly hurt by what her father does as well as the way her mother treats her after her father's death. I think it leads to Linden desiring to do everything within her power to avoid getting into situations that will cause her hurt. One way of doing that is through controlling situations. The theory goes that if you are in control (if you make the decisions) you can rationalise that everything possible was done to avoid any potential hurt. Leave it in the hands of someone else and you might have to face the possibility you could have done it better. If you're in control you can say "I did everything within my power to prevent that hurt".
But Linden's desire to control situations isn't just to avoid hurt (it's far more complicated than that). I think Linden's overriding desire for control is her subconscious attempt of getting back what her father took away from her as a child (control of her life). From the moment she euthanized her mother, Linden began down the path of seeking to control situations in a futile attempt to erase the hurt of that one moment in her life (her father's suicide, that one thing that made her feel so helpless, so out of control).
Is wanting control for those reasons selfish? I don't know. Her actions certainly fit into the definition of selfish but I think there's a difference between wanting to control situations and being selfish, given what we know about Linden's background.
Her choice to love both Covenant and Jeremiah (two people who cannot interact with her) is significant. I think they're safe people for her to love: if you can't be loved back then you can't, in theory, get hurt. But I think Linden's choice to adopt Jeremiah has nothing to do with control, or with her being selfish. She perceives he is as damaged as she is. His mother did a terrible thing to him, as did her father and mother to her. In many ways, I think loving him and showing him love is her attempt to redeem herself, prove that she is capable of loving someone "enough", subconsciously addressing the relationship she had with her father. Whether she did or didn't love her father enough doesn't matter anymore, whether she still believes it or doesn't doesn't matter either. The hurt that belief caused remains. Jeremiah she loves with all her heart and soul, even when his disassociated state means he cannot openly reciprocate her love (just like Linden's mother did not reciprocate Linden's love). By loving him she proves she is capable of loving someone enough. And then, to complicate things further: unlike her father, Jeremiah isn't going to leave her like her father did. Jeremiah relies on her. He's "safe" to love on so many different levels. And Jeremiah can't judge her (like her mother did) due to his disassociated state.
Is that selfish: loving someone for reasons than just who they are. If it is then I'd say there's a lot of selfish people in the world.
The events of Melenkurion Skyweir have such a profound effect on Linden for a number of reasons which are relevant to this discussion. Of course, the revelation (that Jeremiah is dead) is enough to tip anyone over the edge. But it's so much more than that:
Firstly, under Melenkurion Skyweir Linden realises just how out of control she has been. Until she finds out who Covenant and Jeremiah really are, Linden does her best to keep on top of things. She does everything she possibly can do to stay in control of the situation when she is taken into the Land's past. Sure, she's being guided by Covenant and Jeremiah and there are certain things she can't be in control of, but she's always thinking, she's always reacting, always pushing and looking for answers. She does the best she can. Under MS she is so profoundly hurt because she realises that she was not in control at all--despite everything she has done to protect herself, to control the situation, she has done absolutely everything that *they* wanted her to do. She realises that from the moment Covenant and Jeremiah arrived, she has been as out of control as when she sat in that room with her bleeding father.
Secondly the situation she is placed in (being given back her son whole only to then realise under MS that it's all a lie) is beyond terrible. Ultimately, all she wants is to be loved. She wants the love she perceives her parents never gave her. She wants that moment when Jeremiah reciprocates her love, tells her she has loved him "enough". Finally Jeremiah is returned to her whole, finally he can give her the love (and validation, and consolation) she craves. After years of loving him he is now in a position to reciprocate. But from the moment that she isn't allowed to take him in her arms, when Covenant tells her not to touch him, she's back in that hell of being rejected like she was as a child. She's placed back in that situation where all that love she has given Jeremiah just isn't good enough (just like she perceives her love wasn't good enough for her father or her mother). She has tried to earn Jeremiah's love through her dedication to him, and she is rejected. She tried to earn his love and it is all for nothing--he loves Covenant more than he loves her. The words There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken come to my mind. She is given back Jeremiah, more whole than he has ever been, and yet he is "broken" (he does not love her).
That's what tips her over the edge. Foul (Roger and the croyel) made her feel as helpless as when she was a child, and they made her feel as unloved as she did as a child. All the darkness associated with those childhood feelings resurfaces. I suppose there's only so long you can keep trying to rationalise things, and make them right through passive approaches. She's now full of a desire for redemption. She does not forgive. I don't blame her. Doing everything her way from the moment she returns to Revelstone is simply an amplification of what she's been doing most of her adult life (seeking control to avoid hurt) only with the terrible dark twist of her desire to seek revenge. Who she is really getting revenge on I'm not quite sure. I think that somehow her desire to exact revenge has just as much to do with how she feels about her parents as it has to do with Lord Foul and his minions.
What's saving Jeremiah got to do with this: why not just go completely bananas and go after Foul, forget about Jeremiah. Firstly, Jeremiah is her son (adopted or not) and that's what parents do--love their children and never give up on them. But, secondly, she cannot let go of the fact that her parents abandoned her (physically and emotionally). If she gives up on Jeremiah she is giving up on him like she perceives her parents gave up on her. And if she does that, if she abandons him, if she gives up on him, she gives up on herself. I think she rationalises if Jeremiah can be saved so too can she (on so many levels).
The short version of all this is: it's not that simple. I don't think she's a "monster" (she's no more of a monster than Covenant was); and I don't think her desire for control really is that selfish. She's not trying to control things because she wants to be in control of everything. She's merely trying to fix herself, survive, feel whole again in the only way she knows how. When I follow Linden's journey I never think "how selfish". I am always left lamenting for her: to be that profoundly hurt at such a young age...I understand why she does what she does. I wish she didn't do it--inevitably she fails at protecting herself time and again, and hurts those around her, those she loves, in the process. But I don't think she knows how to do it any differently.
And I haven't done that great a job explaining what I think (and I think what I've spoken about is only the tip of the iceberg). But I love the question Jenn!
Oh, but: saving a dead child? Jeremiah is dead in the real world so why is she bothering to save him? Because he is still alive. In the Land. And given the fact that both Linden and Covenant consider the Land real, it makes sense to me that she also sees Jeremiah's predicament as real. That and the fact that, if I were in her situation, I couldn't simply switch off my emotions and say "oh well, he's stuffed so why bother". And honestly, if it came to making a choice, I'd save my son over saving the world. I would say "saving the world, I can't do that"...and I'd also say "my son is my world."
here endith my rant.
I do agree that to a certain degree Linden is selfish. However, I think there's a difference between doing things because one is simply selfish and doing selfish things because one has been programmed by events in ones life to react in a given way.
I think Linden's life is all about control because of what happened in her childhood. Being locked in a room while your father bleeds out, being unable to do anything about it, being so helpless, would obviously have a profound affect on anyone. Being unable to change it makes it worse. Feeling you're responsible (that Linden did not love her father enough and that's the reason he killed himself) is terrible. Her father dead, she can't prove to him she did love him "enough" nor can he reassure her that what she thinks is wrong. It's a ludicrous situation for a child to be put in, a terrible thing for a child to feel, to believe. By the time someone could rationalise with Linden it wasn't *her* fault, the hurt by then was buried too deeply inside her. It'll probably always be there there.
So Linden is profoundly hurt by what her father does as well as the way her mother treats her after her father's death. I think it leads to Linden desiring to do everything within her power to avoid getting into situations that will cause her hurt. One way of doing that is through controlling situations. The theory goes that if you are in control (if you make the decisions) you can rationalise that everything possible was done to avoid any potential hurt. Leave it in the hands of someone else and you might have to face the possibility you could have done it better. If you're in control you can say "I did everything within my power to prevent that hurt".
But Linden's desire to control situations isn't just to avoid hurt (it's far more complicated than that). I think Linden's overriding desire for control is her subconscious attempt of getting back what her father took away from her as a child (control of her life). From the moment she euthanized her mother, Linden began down the path of seeking to control situations in a futile attempt to erase the hurt of that one moment in her life (her father's suicide, that one thing that made her feel so helpless, so out of control).
Is wanting control for those reasons selfish? I don't know. Her actions certainly fit into the definition of selfish but I think there's a difference between wanting to control situations and being selfish, given what we know about Linden's background.
Her choice to love both Covenant and Jeremiah (two people who cannot interact with her) is significant. I think they're safe people for her to love: if you can't be loved back then you can't, in theory, get hurt. But I think Linden's choice to adopt Jeremiah has nothing to do with control, or with her being selfish. She perceives he is as damaged as she is. His mother did a terrible thing to him, as did her father and mother to her. In many ways, I think loving him and showing him love is her attempt to redeem herself, prove that she is capable of loving someone "enough", subconsciously addressing the relationship she had with her father. Whether she did or didn't love her father enough doesn't matter anymore, whether she still believes it or doesn't doesn't matter either. The hurt that belief caused remains. Jeremiah she loves with all her heart and soul, even when his disassociated state means he cannot openly reciprocate her love (just like Linden's mother did not reciprocate Linden's love). By loving him she proves she is capable of loving someone enough. And then, to complicate things further: unlike her father, Jeremiah isn't going to leave her like her father did. Jeremiah relies on her. He's "safe" to love on so many different levels. And Jeremiah can't judge her (like her mother did) due to his disassociated state.
Is that selfish: loving someone for reasons than just who they are. If it is then I'd say there's a lot of selfish people in the world.
The events of Melenkurion Skyweir have such a profound effect on Linden for a number of reasons which are relevant to this discussion. Of course, the revelation (that Jeremiah is dead) is enough to tip anyone over the edge. But it's so much more than that:
Firstly, under Melenkurion Skyweir Linden realises just how out of control she has been. Until she finds out who Covenant and Jeremiah really are, Linden does her best to keep on top of things. She does everything she possibly can do to stay in control of the situation when she is taken into the Land's past. Sure, she's being guided by Covenant and Jeremiah and there are certain things she can't be in control of, but she's always thinking, she's always reacting, always pushing and looking for answers. She does the best she can. Under MS she is so profoundly hurt because she realises that she was not in control at all--despite everything she has done to protect herself, to control the situation, she has done absolutely everything that *they* wanted her to do. She realises that from the moment Covenant and Jeremiah arrived, she has been as out of control as when she sat in that room with her bleeding father.
Secondly the situation she is placed in (being given back her son whole only to then realise under MS that it's all a lie) is beyond terrible. Ultimately, all she wants is to be loved. She wants the love she perceives her parents never gave her. She wants that moment when Jeremiah reciprocates her love, tells her she has loved him "enough". Finally Jeremiah is returned to her whole, finally he can give her the love (and validation, and consolation) she craves. After years of loving him he is now in a position to reciprocate. But from the moment that she isn't allowed to take him in her arms, when Covenant tells her not to touch him, she's back in that hell of being rejected like she was as a child. She's placed back in that situation where all that love she has given Jeremiah just isn't good enough (just like she perceives her love wasn't good enough for her father or her mother). She has tried to earn Jeremiah's love through her dedication to him, and she is rejected. She tried to earn his love and it is all for nothing--he loves Covenant more than he loves her. The words There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken come to my mind. She is given back Jeremiah, more whole than he has ever been, and yet he is "broken" (he does not love her).
That's what tips her over the edge. Foul (Roger and the croyel) made her feel as helpless as when she was a child, and they made her feel as unloved as she did as a child. All the darkness associated with those childhood feelings resurfaces. I suppose there's only so long you can keep trying to rationalise things, and make them right through passive approaches. She's now full of a desire for redemption. She does not forgive. I don't blame her. Doing everything her way from the moment she returns to Revelstone is simply an amplification of what she's been doing most of her adult life (seeking control to avoid hurt) only with the terrible dark twist of her desire to seek revenge. Who she is really getting revenge on I'm not quite sure. I think that somehow her desire to exact revenge has just as much to do with how she feels about her parents as it has to do with Lord Foul and his minions.
What's saving Jeremiah got to do with this: why not just go completely bananas and go after Foul, forget about Jeremiah. Firstly, Jeremiah is her son (adopted or not) and that's what parents do--love their children and never give up on them. But, secondly, she cannot let go of the fact that her parents abandoned her (physically and emotionally). If she gives up on Jeremiah she is giving up on him like she perceives her parents gave up on her. And if she does that, if she abandons him, if she gives up on him, she gives up on herself. I think she rationalises if Jeremiah can be saved so too can she (on so many levels).
The short version of all this is: it's not that simple. I don't think she's a "monster" (she's no more of a monster than Covenant was); and I don't think her desire for control really is that selfish. She's not trying to control things because she wants to be in control of everything. She's merely trying to fix herself, survive, feel whole again in the only way she knows how. When I follow Linden's journey I never think "how selfish". I am always left lamenting for her: to be that profoundly hurt at such a young age...I understand why she does what she does. I wish she didn't do it--inevitably she fails at protecting herself time and again, and hurts those around her, those she loves, in the process. But I don't think she knows how to do it any differently.
And I haven't done that great a job explaining what I think (and I think what I've spoken about is only the tip of the iceberg). But I love the question Jenn!
Oh, but: saving a dead child? Jeremiah is dead in the real world so why is she bothering to save him? Because he is still alive. In the Land. And given the fact that both Linden and Covenant consider the Land real, it makes sense to me that she also sees Jeremiah's predicament as real. That and the fact that, if I were in her situation, I couldn't simply switch off my emotions and say "oh well, he's stuffed so why bother". And honestly, if it came to making a choice, I'd save my son over saving the world. I would say "saving the world, I can't do that"...and I'd also say "my son is my world."
here endith my rant.
You know, you can pretty much analyze anyone's love as "selfishness", since we are all looking to get something in return for our love. Gods may be capable of true selflesss love, but I'm not sure we humans are. Even saints and boddhisatvas are looking for the religious rewards of their higher-order love.
Re: She has risked The Land to save a DEAD child.
Jeremiah isn't dead in the Land, and doesn't have to be. Hile Troy lasted 3600 years after his real world death. And for that matter TC risked the land also for the sake of a child in the real world. How many people suffered and died as a result of that delay?
By the way, something no one has mentioned yet: what is keeping Jeremiah alive in the Land? His wounds are not healed, unlike Linden's and Roger's (who healed Roger I wonder? Kastenessen? why not Jeremiah too?) And those wounds look pretty lethal. Is the croyel keeping him just barely alive? Linden ought be a lot more frantic about that situation than she is. And I can see this being a major dilemma later: She won't dare strike at the croyel if that's all that keeping Jeremiah alive.
Re: She has risked The Land to save a DEAD child.
Jeremiah isn't dead in the Land, and doesn't have to be. Hile Troy lasted 3600 years after his real world death. And for that matter TC risked the land also for the sake of a child in the real world. How many people suffered and died as a result of that delay?
By the way, something no one has mentioned yet: what is keeping Jeremiah alive in the Land? His wounds are not healed, unlike Linden's and Roger's (who healed Roger I wonder? Kastenessen? why not Jeremiah too?) And those wounds look pretty lethal. Is the croyel keeping him just barely alive? Linden ought be a lot more frantic about that situation than she is. And I can see this being a major dilemma later: She won't dare strike at the croyel if that's all that keeping Jeremiah alive.
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Perhaps this is what Donaldson is zeroing in on..Love that seeks to be reciprocated is like the croyel....The connundrum, paradox of Jeremiahs situation,,is a classic. Again, as with most paradoxes..take a closer look at the original assumptions,,work thru the impossible conflict and see ya on the other side..Seems to me Donaldson will end up defining Love differently thru Linden's path of discovery....Aleksandr wrote:You know, you can pretty much analyze anyone's love as "selfishness", since we are all looking to get something in return for our love.
: She won't dare strike at the croyel if that's all that keeping Jeremiah alive.
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
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Zarathustra
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If that's the case, I'll stop reading Donaldson right now. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be loved by those whom you love. Sure, people can twist this desire into something needy and pathetic. But if love has to be so "pure" that you don't care if your wife loves you or not . . . that's inhuman.lurch wrote: Perhaps this is what Donaldson is zeroing in on..Love that seeks to be reciprocated is like the croyel....
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
In fairness almost all of TC actions in the first chronicles were motivated by selfishness too.
Example, TC helped Elena obtain the power of command so that he wouldn't have to use his ring and become responsible for his actions/in-actions.
But yeah to me Linden has been acting screwy these past two books.
Example, TC helped Elena obtain the power of command so that he wouldn't have to use his ring and become responsible for his actions/in-actions.
But yeah to me Linden has been acting screwy these past two books.
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wayfriend
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Wow, Jenn. Simply wow.
If you try and save someone you love, that's selfishness?
If you try to contribute to a community and do something good, that's selfishness?
Are you so sure that there's no other possible motives?
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get through eight Chronicles books and not recognize that Donaldson speaks repeatedly about service. Service enables service. Hope springs from service. Service opposes despite. Service provides meaning.
If you can say that Linden works in a mental hospital for selfish reasons, you might as well say that the Ramen serve the Ranyhyn for selfish reasons. That the people of the Land serve the Earth for selfish reasons. Because you are denying that there is that which can be worth serving. And that serving can provide direction and meaning in your life.
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get through eight Chronicles books and not see where Donaldson tells us about love. Love is giving and taking. You can take without guilt because that which you take is given freely; you give freely because that which you give is taken in the acceptance of love's bonding. In accepting a gift, you honor the giver.
If you can say that trying to save the one you love, as either a parent or a lover, is for selfish reasons, then you might as well say that Covenant redeemed the Giant's in Coercri for selfish reasons, that he walked upon a sacrificial rock for selfish reasons. That Mhoram's victory was selfish; that Pitchwife fought at his wife's side under Mount Doom because he was selfish.
You can't love without giving, but you can't love without taking either.
You can't serve without sacrifice, but you can't serve without nurturing hope either.
As I see it, these are the things that make the world work. As Malik says, we are imperfect, and if we denounce love because it is imperfect, we denounce all love.
Linden loves Jeremiah because she can help him. But think about it: is it even possible to love someone you cannot help? If the object of your love only gives and never takes, then that would a half-lame love. Jeremiah helps Linden because she can help him. It's a fair give and take.
All of you who denounce this love do so under the ASSUMPTION that Linden could love no other. That she could not love a healthy, normal child. That she could not love a real, present man. Which is so wrong I don't even know where to start. Maybe too many of us are conditioned to find the "best match" before we give our love, and so assume that Linden made the best match she could. But that's utterly wrong.
If you try and save someone you love, that's selfishness?
If you try to contribute to a community and do something good, that's selfishness?
Are you so sure that there's no other possible motives?
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get through eight Chronicles books and not recognize that Donaldson speaks repeatedly about service. Service enables service. Hope springs from service. Service opposes despite. Service provides meaning.
If you can say that Linden works in a mental hospital for selfish reasons, you might as well say that the Ramen serve the Ranyhyn for selfish reasons. That the people of the Land serve the Earth for selfish reasons. Because you are denying that there is that which can be worth serving. And that serving can provide direction and meaning in your life.
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't get through eight Chronicles books and not see where Donaldson tells us about love. Love is giving and taking. You can take without guilt because that which you take is given freely; you give freely because that which you give is taken in the acceptance of love's bonding. In accepting a gift, you honor the giver.
If you can say that trying to save the one you love, as either a parent or a lover, is for selfish reasons, then you might as well say that Covenant redeemed the Giant's in Coercri for selfish reasons, that he walked upon a sacrificial rock for selfish reasons. That Mhoram's victory was selfish; that Pitchwife fought at his wife's side under Mount Doom because he was selfish.
You can't love without giving, but you can't love without taking either.
You can't serve without sacrifice, but you can't serve without nurturing hope either.
As I see it, these are the things that make the world work. As Malik says, we are imperfect, and if we denounce love because it is imperfect, we denounce all love.
Linden loves Jeremiah because she can help him. But think about it: is it even possible to love someone you cannot help? If the object of your love only gives and never takes, then that would a half-lame love. Jeremiah helps Linden because she can help him. It's a fair give and take.
All of you who denounce this love do so under the ASSUMPTION that Linden could love no other. That she could not love a healthy, normal child. That she could not love a real, present man. Which is so wrong I don't even know where to start. Maybe too many of us are conditioned to find the "best match" before we give our love, and so assume that Linden made the best match she could. But that's utterly wrong.
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High Lord Tolkien
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Re: Linden Avery - Selfish Monster
Jenn, I name you THOOLAHFriend, no other name suffices.Cameraman Jenn wrote:Oh, HLT, you are gonna love/hate me for this.
And Wayfreind, Linden's a made up character.
Comparing her actions to how real people act doesn't quite compare.
Donaldson can make her reasons be as twisted as he wants.
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Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
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wayfriend
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Re: Linden Avery - Selfish Monster
Yep! And if Donaldson wanted her to be selfish, he would have wrote "She was a selfish monster".High Lord Tolkien wrote:Donaldson can make her reasons be as twisted as he wants.
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