Below is a reprint of my post in Dissecting the Land. I find it might be an interesting endeavour to try to break down the language of the Old Lords. We tryed to do this, to some degree, in an achived topic called the Seven Words of Power. So let's give it an even better try here and work to analyze as much of the Old Lanquage as we can.---
In the chapters we've read so far we are introduced to some of the language of the Old Lords. In The Celebration of Spring the Unfettered One utters the most old words in one sentence we've ever heard.
Atiaran tells TC that Banas Nimoram means: The Celebration of Spring. So those words can't be part of the Seven Words, can they? Is khabaal akin to cabal--which means gathering or coven doesn't it?
We already know some other old words like rhadamaerl, suru-pa-maerl, lillianrill, lormillialor and aliantha. Maerl would have to mean stone and llia might refer directly to wood. I don't think we know what Melenkurion abatha means but the glossary calls it an: invocation of power. So those two may be words of power...
I'll have to look in the Old Discussion forum for the 7 Words of Power topic. In that ancient thread they came tp the conclusion that in the six books only 6 Words were found..hmmmm
Last edited by danlo on Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
This old post made by Lord Skywier back in August of 8-01 can help fuel this particular discussion.
Skyweir wrote:
Lord Hyrum uttered .. "Melenkurion abatha! Duroc minas mill khabaal!" .. to which turiya Raver replied .. "Hah! Little Lord! Is that the limit of your lore? Can you come no closer than that to the Seven Words? You pronounce them badly. But I must admit you recognised me ... I am Kinslaughterer."
These same 6 words were used often by various people throughout the chronicles .. For this reason has so many questions arisen as to the mystery of the 7 words when only ever 6 are evident ..
Whether all 6 words are infact 6 of the 7 words is questionable however .. Kinslaughterer didn't specify that Hyrum had only used '6 out of the 7' words .. but simply jibed Hyrum by saying "can you come no closer" - to the 7 words than that! ..
The Unfettered one as 'A' mentioned at the beginning of this topic page uttered a phrase of 11 words .. some words were repeated .. "Melenkurion abatha! Binas mil Banos Nimoram khabaal! Melenkurion abatha! Abatha Nimoran!" .. and Atiaran commented to TC .. "He knew more of the Seven Words than my ears have ever heard." Though Atiaran does tell TC before the Dance of the Wraiths in Andelain; "this is Banas Nimoran, the celebration of spring - finest rite of all the treasures of the earth." ..
Some of all these words form part of the Seven Words of Power .. but not all .. These words may not be 'words' alone but utterances when used in harmony evoke great power ..
The 'power of command' is the name of the 7th wards power .. the 7 words of power were supposedly intended to be illicted by the discoveryand mastery of the 7 wards in succession .. the Lords may only truly have discovered 4 or 5 of them to date? .. who knows how few .. I always thought they had discovered only 6 of them but now I think they may only have mastery of much fewer ..
I've thought about this since we talked about this in the thread on the old board, and now I rather suspect that the fabled Seven Words of Power should more accurately be described as Seven Phrases of Power. So "Melenkurion abatha!" is one of the Seven, and the "minas mil(l) khabaal" sentence structure is another.
If that's true, then of the Seven Words of Power, the Lords have recovered a total of two.
Which reminds me -- when these folks say, "By the Seven!", are they referring to the Seven Words of Power or the Seven Wards?
I've always wondered about the Waynhim language -- is it the same as the Old Lord Language? And isn't it convenient that the peoples of the Land started talking American English in time for TC's visit
One of the reasons I like Donaldson so much is his amazing use of language. The only things that compares is Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun trilogy and Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange.
Most of the seven words are pretty obscure to me – with one exception.
Melenkurion is pure Greek. Melen being derived from Meles (black) as in ie melancholy, and Kurion being the accusative of kyrie (Lord). Thus – Melenkurion must mean Lord of Darkness.
I think the Seven Words are a way of subduing evil. The similarities between controlling spirits by speaking names of power (different names of God) in medieval handbooks of Magic or Grimoires is striking. "I conjure ye by these other names of God most Holy and unknown by the virtue of which names ye tremble every day...".
Another thing I thought about it the meaning of ur- as in ur-lord. In another thread someone suggested it meant "pseudo". But in this case Donaldson gives us the solution: Linden asks: "What is an ur-lord anyway?" TC answers. " I was Berek re-born". So, ur- must mean rebirth , which is applicable on ur-viles as well, who are the reincarnation of the Viles.
No, when the fight begins within himself, A man's worth something - Robert Browning
That's an interesting point. When TC said that to Linden, I assumed he meant that his being the re-incarnation of Berek had reulted in him being mede an honourary Lord of sorts. But you could be right, the ur-Viles are a rebirth of the Viles, more or less. I like that idea. It makes sense.
It is a bit daring to say that Melenkurion means Lord of Darkness, imho; why would the Lord be in accusative? it may be that SRD chose the word with Greek having in mind.
Re: ur-: I think this a German prefix, meaning "very, highly", cf. "ur-alt" "ancient, very old"
------------------------------------------------------------------------ love is the shadow that ripens the wine
Yes, you have a good point there, but since the language of the Lords isn't real anyway, most of the stuff that is posted here is speculation. Imho, that what makes it so fun.
The -ion suffix is a greek accusative form – Lord is kyrie as in "kyrie eleison", whereas the accusative "Kyrios ton Kyrion" means Lord of Lords, and "ton kyrion" means with the Lord (kurion is another way of spelling kyrion – both are valid). But I certainly agree that there can be many interpretations.
Interesting you mentioned the ur- prefix. You're quite right, ur- is used in German and Scandinavian languages, mostly meaning primitive, original or earliest. Only then, the ur-lord would be Berek and the ur-viles would be the Demondim and that doesn't make sense. Using ur- as "very or highly" is at least in Scandinavian languages (can't vouch for German) only used in a very popular or familiar context.
No, when the fight begins within himself, A man's worth something - Robert Browning
Wow! This is turning in2 one intense, informative and xciting topic! Again I must credit such folks as aliantha, Sky, aminabhavin and juntel 4 starting related posts in the old KW discussion 4rums!
Once again, on this site, I feel like Ranyhyn droppings!!! Did u ever look at something 4 a very long time only 2 realize the answer was right under ur nose?--On my 1st post I posed this:
Maerl would have 2 mean stone and llia might refer directly 2 wood.
Do u kno that I have looked 2 Lynn K. Plagge's map of the Land 4 close 2 27 years and NEVER realized that the Maerl River means The Stone River? It took my 3rd reading of LFB and Saltheart Foamfollower 2 kick me in the head!!!
Another thing that Foamy did while describing Trothguard and the lilliarill was make me realize that the Rill River must mean the Wood River! Praise the Creator, I feel as dumb as Drool!!!
Nekhrimah--that word was pretty darn powerful. Perhaps that's the 7th word..."
I doubt it. I mean the Words of Power werent even used in that stage in the Lands history. Plus, the ur-viles were the ones who told SHFF that Nekhrimah was the command word, doubtful theyd choose a Word of Power to trigger their most powerful weapon...
Oh u're SO technical, LM! Now I want 2 cry! This, however, leads back 2 the old arguement of the "ounce of good passed from the Demondim 2 the ur-viles in the creation of Vain". They had their lore, The Viles that is, the Old Lords may have incorporated some of that lore, re: power. Possibly Damelon Giantfriend or Loric! U may be right, but I still hold out some hope 4 that word. Oh I'm having a rough day, suddenly! Well all I can say 2 that is: NOM!!!!!!!
Warning: I am now going to be very speculative and yes, I'll be twisting things to fit my theory. Just so you know before you start hitting me on the head. Please bear with me, I've got a lot of wild and silly ideas - this could be one of them, but here I go (Deep breath):
The more I tried to dig into these Seven Words, the more I was convinced that intuitive (or speculative) translation using hints from the books was the best way of trying to find the (possible) hidden meaning that we can translate from these words. Especially so, since SD doesn't always use "real" words in their original sense. Still, SD seems to have used or been inspired by words from other languages, and those words may even be translatable. We can't just translate the words right off and expect to get something comprehensible. First, we must establish what the Words of Power are. My theory is that the Seven Words describe the seven principle powers that rule and define the Land. To understand what those powers are, I go to the source; the only being in TCTC that fully comprehends the true meaning of the Seven Words – Lord Foul himself.
Memla tells us of the Seven Hells (as conveyed by LF) – Rain, Desert, Pestilence, Fertility, War, Savagery and Darkness. My idea is that the Seven Hells are LF's way of perverting, or corrupting the Seven Words. When it comes to the last three words, I think we should think of the opposite to get the original meaning: War – Peace, Savagery – Law, Darkness – Light
My guess is that the other four are connected to the elemental powers: Rain – Water, Desert – Fire, Pestilence – Air, Fertility – Earth
Now we get to the part where we try to match each Word of Power to these 7 concepts.
First, and most intuitive is the phrase that goes: "Duroc minas mill khabaal!" According to Vain's posting, Khabaal is "hellfire", therefore I guess that this word stands for Fire. "Duroc" is French for "of stone/rock", so I take this to mean Earth. "Minas" is guesswork, but if you think of the Giantish phrase "Stone and Sea" (Duroc Minas) this could signify Water. That leaves us with "Mill" for Air.
Next we have Peace, Law and Light. We know that "Banas Nimoram" represents the Celebration of Spring. This is a common rite even in this world, and what we celebrate is the return of light after the long dark winter. I take a chance that Nimoram means Light and that Banas is Law. When the Celebration was attacked, the Unfettered in Andelain also used the word Nimoram with Abatha. "Abatha Nimoram" could mean Peace for the Light. If Abatha is Peace, we have seven concepts and seven words, but that leaves us "Melenkurion".
As I mentioned before, melenkurion can be translated as Lord of Darkness. The -ion suffix can also be neutrum, as in "the place of the black lord". If we replace "the Lord" with "Power" which has a similar meaning, we get Dark Power – much like the black Earthblood in Melenkurion Skyweir. Perhaps Melenkurion simply means Earthpower?
Also consider these emanations of said powers:
Power of Light – Wraiths
Power of Earth – Gravelling, Lillianrill, Earthblood
Power of Fire – Firelions
Power of Water – Merewives, Nicor
Power of Air – Sandgorgons, Soulbiter
Power of Law – The One Tree
Power of Peace – Elohim (they were keepers of peace when they appointed someone)
No, when the fight begins within himself, A man's worth something - Robert Browning
fascinating--this will require @least 1 day of processing--in Vespers (LFB) the Lord's hymn talks about Seven Wards, Seven Words and Seven Hells. By the 7! (3 Sevens, 3 raps of Prothall's staff, how hermetric!)
Ah, Yes of course! You are brilliant danlo! Seven Wards, Seven Words, Seven Hells! I had the clues right in front of me and have been blind!
The first Ward was the Ward of Peace (Abatha). It was given to the Giants who were emissaries of Peace. For a thousand years there was peace in the Land. The Lords took an oath of Peace, and we learn most of the lore was connected with the Warward (keepers of peace).
The second Ward was the Ward of Earth (Duroc). It was found in the deepest cave in the earth beneath Mount Thunder.
The third, fourth and fifth Wards would be Wards of Water, Air and Fire, and the sixth Ward would be the Ward of Light – we know the krill would shine with a bright light whan the sixth Ward was mastered leading to the seventh Ward – the Power of Command.
This is where I erred. I thought the opposite of Savagery would be Law, when it should really be Command! And of course, what the Unfettered is saying to the Ur-viles is "I Command you to Peace!" Abatha Nimoram! I was also wrong in thinking Nimoram was Light and Banas Law. Nimoram is the Power of Command, and Banas is the Power of Light (stupid Ahanna forgot that Ban/Banain is a Celtic word for white, fair or light!).
Then I thought of something else. How Atiaran compelled Foamfollower to reveal his name. He said "There is power in names. I do not wish to be invoked by any but friends". Then, when he did tell his name, she said: "I charge you by the power of your name..." to bind him to do what she asked. With this in mind, I think I was right in the first place – Melenkurion does really mean Lord of Darkness -and it is the true name of Lord Foul!Thus you bind or invoke the Despiser with his own name and by the words (wyrds, wurds, wards) of Power! In that case "Melenkurion abatha!" means Lord of Darkness, I bind you with the Power of Peace!
What do you think? Does this make sense?
No, when the fight begins within himself, A man's worth something - Robert Browning
The field is wide open, really. I was fortunate enough to have the chance of asking SRD about the Seven Words. He says he made them up more or less arbitrarily, and denied that they have any specific meaning. In particular, he said he didn't derive Melenkurion from Greek.
But it's a fine suggestion. The Seven Hells idea, I think, is farfetched but not impossible. Suffice it to say that it almost certainly goes beyond anything the author had in mind at the time. Seven is a number of great magical significance in the Land, as it is in the Near Eastern mythological and religious traditions on which SRD draws most heavily. (I'm not in a position to say what the early Hindus thought of the number 7.) All these sevens are not necessarily related.
Next time I see SRD, I'll have to ask him what the seventh Word was. He'll probably tell me to go jump in Hotash Slay.
So, what you're saying is that the son of a doctor, who has worked in a hospital for two years and has a language university degree does not recognize Melenkurion as Greek?
Almost all medical terminology is Greek and Latin, and now he's saying – "No, Melen is not derived from Greek, I have never heard of such things as Melancholy, Melanesian, Melanin or Melanoma. No, Kurion is not Greek, and even though I have a University degree in English I have no idea the English word Church is derived from kuriakon (Lord's house) and I have never heard of the hymn "Kyrie eleison". I also arbitrarily use the Greek suffix -ion, but no – it's absolutely not Greek."
This would either make SD out as either ignorant or with a total disinterest in language, and to me it's clear that SD is neither of those. Donaldson may not be a University language professor such as Tolkien, and the description of language development in the Land may not be as central as it could have been, but if there is nothing Greek in Melenkurion, I'll eat all six of my chrons. The only other thing I can think of would be the Latin Melena (which comes from Greek Melas and also means "black") and Curia (court assembly), but this still doesn't explain the -ion suffix.
However, it is quite possible that since language is one of my major interests, I tend to believe that this is also true of others. It is also plausible that many of the "foreign" words in TCTC is pure fabrication, and if he says that the seven words have no specific meaning I'm inclined to believe that (even though it renders this particular topic pointless). Still, if he particularly said that he didn't derive Melenkurion from Greek, I would very much like to know from what language he did derive it from...
No, when the fight begins within himself, A man's worth something - Robert Browning
Wow! This is turning in2 one intense, informative and xciting topic! Again I must credit such folks as aliantha, Sky, aminabhavin and juntel 4 starting related posts in the old KW discussion 4rums!
Well all I can say 2 that is: NOM!!!!!!! 