Outside of the Land

[Starkin]

Kind of an off-the-wall topic here, but does anybody ever wonder what the rest of the Earth might look like beyond the Land? The Land itself has been written about pretty thoroughly; though there are still a lot of blank spaces on the maps. The lifeless Gray Desert lies to the south with Snowy Plains harboring the arghuleh in the north; but what lies beyond the Westron Mountains? What is 'Outer Earth' anyway?

Spoiler

We learn in FR that the Insequent dwell there.

We’ve seen Bhrathairealm, Elemesnedene and the Isle of the One Tree. That’s one of my particular joys of reading TOT; discovering these new locales only hinted at before. That, and traveling with Giants.

The geography of fantasy has always held a special fascination for me; I love maps and world-building. When I was a teenager I drew a map of what I thought the Sunbirth Sea and its shores might look like. I think I sent it to SRD when I wrote him that first time... back in '86. Wonder if he ever kept that and what his thoughts were… some dumb teenage boy telling him what his world looked like.

I know SRD will never do like Tolkien and write tons of “extra” material to fill up the blank spaces. We all know he only writes what he needs for the story. But when he lists all those awesome landforms during Covenant's blood run: The Centerpith Barrens, Greshas Slant, Andelainscion, Lake Pelluce, Graywightswath, Riversward, Emacrimma's Maw... the map-maker in me longs for a detailed map of the entire Land.

It’s interesting to wonder what it might look like out there. At least to me. I have my own crazy ideas about it; pure speculation, of course. I’ve even made up some of my own “Land” based names, though they could never rival SRD’s. He'd probably cringe if he saw them. Maybe I’ll draw my own version of the Land and its Earth one day for my own satisfaction…? Who knows what geographic wonders SRD might uncover in the next two books?

Of course, maybe I just have too much time on my hands! I've had too much caffeine, it's 3:20 AM and I'm going on and on. Time for bed!

Anybody have anything to add to my ramblings?

[amanibhavam]

Hi Starkin,

maps can be fascinating indeed and SRD's way of writing fortunately gives us a lot of space for speculation.

I presume you know that there exists an Atlas of the Land drawn by Karen Wynn Fonstad (the same person who also made the Atlas of Middle-Earth)? I purchased it a few years ago through abebooks.com.

[Starkin]

I presume you know that there exists an Atlas of the Land drawn by Karen Wynn Fonstad (the same person who also made the Atlas of Middle-Earth)?

Oh yes, my copy has become worn from much use (as has TAOMe); Over the years I've colored some of the maps and written all over it. It's kind of a mess now.

It still saddens me that she passed away. She was so kind in her letters to me. You could say I've been slightly obsessed with her work. It still fascinates me.

Here's a copy of an email I received from her son, Mark Fonstad; he's an Assistant Professor of Geography at Arizona State. I emailed him just last month regarding a handwritten letter I received from his mother way back in the 80's. I thought he might want to see it. I can't reproduce the actual letter here but thought some people on the Watch might find his email interesting:

Hi Tab

Thanks for the great email, it's always wonderful to see that someone was pumped about my mother's work. Obviously, she got me into maps and geography as well (my dad had as much to do with it, to be sure). There were actually several books that she wanted to do but publishers weren't into or there were other issues such as rights (such as Narnia). I went to Ireland to visit Anne McCaffrey with my mother when she was writing the Atlas of Pern, and Anne was very warm, patient, and supportive about the whole process. I also remember that she had a bunch of horses and cats around the house (I was eleven and remember strange things like that). We also went to Santa Fe for her to work with Steven Donaldson. I didn't get to visit with him much; I went climbing nearby volcanoes instead.

To be honest that letter got me quite emotional; I hadn't seen it before. Thanks again.

Mark Fonstad


>>>"There were actually several books that she wanted to do but publishers weren't into or there were other issues such as rights (such as Narnia)"<<<

Ah, what could've been...

Anyway, thought it was something cool to share with you guys.

[amanibhavam]

Thanks for sharing the email. And I would love to see some maps, sketches, drawings, whatever you can come up with.

[Starkin]

I would love to see some maps, sketches, drawings, whatever you can come up with.

Its been a while since I've made any drawings; And I'm notorious for not keeping my "work." If I come up with something presentable for the Watch I'll post it.

All I have right now is a small database of "Land" names. Just dreaming really; SRD would probably shudder at some of them. Here are some of the better ones I've come up with and where I picture them to be. (Obviously a lot of these features perished in the Sunbane.)

Glenarbor Rise - wooded plateau of Trothgard, rising to the Westron Mountains
Sorshas Pines - wooded area of the North Plains
Columnar Scree - also somewhere in Trothgard
Vista Wedge, the - highlands near Doom's Retreat
Verdant Reach - meadowlands near the Last Hills
Llurallin Cascade - waterfall of the Llurallin as it comes down from the Westron Mountains
Nightgrove - small woodland on the Spolied Plains near Sarangrave Flat
Shuddercopse - another small woodland, not sure where. Lower Land?
Diassomer’s Torment - chasm along Landsdrop in the southern Spoiled Plains
Fenmargin, the - marshes on the Mithil River’s border with Morinmoss
Rockshaw, the - rocky region of the North Plains
Limnus Lake - lake of south central Andelain
Maerlheart - rocky meadowlands of Trothgard near the Maerl River (I love Trothgard)
Vault of the Sky - plateau west of Melenkurion Skyweir
World in Bloom, the - vast meadowlands of the Center Plains
Gravelind Pale, the - region east of Grimmerdhore Forest
Perrada Stand - small woodland of the Center Plains

Villages:
Brawn Stonedown
Sorshas Woodhelven
Wedgecleft Stonedown
Flint Stonedown
Plains Woodhelven
Steading Woodhelven and a lot more

And these are the ones that SRD would probably outright hate:
Consecear Torous - rolling hills of the Center Plains
Kurash Arcanamin - hill region of the Center Plains
Kreshas Animald - scrub-lands east of Morinmoss Forest

Got more but they don't do SRD justice. Not that the others do either...

Kind of a silly pastime, isn't it? ... I just can't get enough of the Land I suppose. That, and TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS!

[King Elessar 8]

Kind of an off-the-wall topic here, but does anybody ever wonder what the rest of the Earth might look like beyond the Land? The Land itself has been written about pretty thoroughly; though there are still a lot of blank spaces on the maps. The lifeless Gray Desert lies to the south with Snowy Plains harboring the arghuleh in the north; but what lies beyond the Westron Mountains? What is 'Outer Earth' anyway?

Spoiler

We learn in FR that the Insequent dwell there.

We’ve seen Bhrathairealm, Elemesnedene and the Isle of the One Tree. That’s one of my particular joys of reading TOT; discovering these new locales only hinted at before. That, and traveling with Giants.

The geography of fantasy has always held a special fascination for me; I love maps and world-building. When I was a teenager I drew a map of what I thought the Sunbirth Sea and its shores might look like. I think I sent it to SRD when I wrote him that first time... back in '86. Wonder if he ever kept that and what his thoughts were… some dumb teenage boy telling him what his world looked like.

I know SRD will never do like Tolkien and write tons of “extra” material to fill up the blank spaces. We all know he only writes what he needs for the story. But when he lists all those awesome landforms during Covenant's blood run: The Centerpith Barrens, Greshas Slant, Andelainscion, Lake Pelluce, Graywightswath, Riversward, Emacrimma's Maw... the map-maker in me longs for a detailed map of the entire Land.

It’s interesting to wonder what it might look like out there. At least to me. I have my own crazy ideas about it; pure speculation, of course. I’ve even made up some of my own “Land” based names, though they could never rival SRD’s. He'd probably cringe if he saw them. Maybe I’ll draw my own version of the Land and its Earth one day for my own satisfaction…? Who knows what geographic wonders SRD might uncover in the next two books?

Of course, maybe I just have too much time on my hands! I've had too much caffeine, it's 3:20 AM and I'm going on and on. Time for bed!

Anybody have anything to add to my ramblings?

This is something that interests me too. No doubt you have noticed that Donaldson is pretty vague about the geography of his world beyond the Land; its almost impossible to get any kind of precise image of where exactly the places we visit in TOT are, and while its obvious there are a lot of other places/nations/regions besides the ones seen, none of them are named or described. I assume its deliberate on SRDs part - I think it helps keep a sense of slight unreality to his world to not get too detailed about its exact layout. I wish he would give the fans a least a rough map of his Earth though.

[Starkin]

This is something that interests me too. No doubt you have noticed that Donaldson is pretty vague about the geography of his world beyond the Land; its almost impossible to get any kind of precise image of where exactly the places we visit in TOT are

If you look at the east coast of the Land like the east coast of North America and the Sunbirth Sea as a model for the Atlantic, then you can kind of picture were Starfare's Gem went. I picture Seareach to be in the location of New England, (Massachusetts). The Giants traveled east/slightly northeast to gain Elemesnedene, which would be somewhere like Scotland or maybe Norway. Then they traveled south/southwest for the Isle of the One Tree. I'm guessing here that there isn't the equivalent of an Iberian Peninsula (Spain) in that Earth to bypass because their direction doesn't really change...

...until the hurricane's hit them. Needing provisions and repairs on the dromond they headed south/southeast for Bhrathairealm on the edge of the Great Desert; picture the coast of Morocco on the verge of the Sahara. Bhrathairealm's coastline faces northwest just like Morocco's.

After they escaped (I'm referencing TOT right now) Starfare's Gem headed west/northwest for the Tree, which I picture somewhere in the area of Bermuda (only more in the center of the ocean). After the debacle there, the ship headed almost directly north until it got stuck in the Soulbiter north of Seareach. Picture Newfoundland.

That gives you an idea of the shape of the Sunbith Sea but there's no indication on what the coastlands all around look like or how wide the Sunbirth Sea is; I have no clue about the capabilities of a Giantship, only that the entire journey by Sea took about 60 days (Atlas of the Land, pgs 189-90). Only thing we know is that somewhere out there is the Giant's Home.

and while its obvious there are a lot of other places/nations/regions besides the ones seen, none of them are named or described. I assume its deliberate on SRDs part - I think it helps keep a sense of slight unreality to his world to not get too detailed about its exact layout. I wish he would give the fans a least a rough map of his Earth though.

Agreed. We know he only creates what he needs but he's got to have some sort of an idea. But he's not forthcoming so I guess we can only dream about it. Anything we come up with will only be fantasy.

No pun intended.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I love maps too!

The only thing I have to add is that I keep getting the feeling that the Ocean to the East of the Land is *immense*.
The Lost Giants NEVER found their way Home after thousands of years of trying!
And it's not like they even found the Sandhold (I can't spell the country that the Sandhold was in) which seems to be a midway point between the Land and GiantHome.
GiantHome must be in a lower or higher hemisphere than the Land too if the Giants can't even recognize the stars in the sky to get Home.

[Starkin]

The Lost Giants NEVER found their way Home after thousands of years of trying!

Yeah, all the different Soulbiter's they run into all the time certainly didn't help and I'm thinking there must be other weirder and stranger things in the oceans of the Earth keeping the Giants lost. Cursed by the Elohim, perhaps? Sounds like something the vindictive incarnates might do to the Giants after giving them the gift of tongues.

And it's not like they even found the Sandhold (I can't spell the country that the Sandhold was in) which seems to be a midway point between the Land and GiantHome.
GiantHome must be in a lower or higher hemisphere than the Land too if the Giants can't even recognize the stars in the sky to get Home.

Good point; Makes sense to me. Here's what I picture: The Land is on a North American-type continent; way past the Westron Mountains I picture a Californian-like coastline on a bigger ocean than the Sunbirth Sea, like the Pacific. The Gray Desert may be on a peninsula that connects to another continent to the south like South America.

Elemesnedene is possibly on a European-type continent, while Bhrathairealm is on a totally different continent from the Elohim, kind of like Africa. Maybe a narrow sea like the Mediterranean separates the two?

And as far as the Giant's Home, I picture it to be on a continent kind of like Australia. The Giants "down under" if you will.

I think its possible that the Earth of the Land might not look that different from ours; most probably as many continents with oceans that don't look all that different than what we know. Just shaped differently.

But again, who knows for sure? SRD is who, and he ain't sayin'.

[darkness]

I agree with Starkin.

I also think that after 1 thousand years, the giants would have found their way around no matter how large the earth. I think their must have been something else stopping them from finding it or blinding their eyes to the correct path. It is inconseivable that the giants with their lore of ship and sea that they could not find whatever they wished.

TC saved the land twice in a row, with Giantish help. It mayhaps been the wish of the creator for the giants to be lost until the correct time.

Anyways, thats my idea, and hello everyone, new here to Kevins Watch.

Darkness

[Starkin]

I also think that after 1 thousand years, the giants would have found their way around no matter how large the earth. I think their must have been something else stopping them from finding it or blinding their eyes to the correct path. It is inconseivable that the giants with their lore of ship and sea that they could not find whatever they wished.

TC saved the land twice in a row, with Giantish help. It mayhaps been the wish of the creator for the giants to be lost until the correct time.

That makes sense, too. Maybe in the last two books that old question will be answered.

Anyways, thats my idea, and hello everyone, new here to Kevins Watch.

Welcome to the Watch!

[Aleksandr]

Re: I also think that after 1 thousand years, the giants would have found their way around no matter how large the earth

Something to consider: winds and currents. Maybe they blow toward the Land and that makes it difficult to sail back east. Even Starfare's Gem ended up becalmed in something like our "Horse Latitudes" in the Atlantic. For a ship dependent solely on wind with limited storage space that can be deadly. If the Unhomed didn't know about Nicor yet they may have hit that calm region and been unable to get past it. If they went north they may hit the winds and current that blew them to the Land. And to the South ???

[Seven Words]

Starkin:

One problem with your list of Land-type place names......one of them would only be viable AFTER the Sunbane and the rise of the Clave...Diassomer's Torment.

Diassomer Mininderian was the wife of the Creator, who betrayed him with a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells. He cast her down with a-Jeroth and made the Land a punishment ground for them.

I know, nitpicky as all get out.

[Starkin]

Starkin:

One problem with your list of Land-type place names......one of them would only be viable AFTER the Sunbane and the rise of the Clave...Diassomer's Torment.

Diassomer Mininderian was the wife of the Creator, who betrayed him with a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells. He cast her down with a-Jeroth and made the Land a punishment ground for them.

I know, nitpicky as all get out.

No problem. Still a cool name, though, right?

[High Lord Tolkien]

Starkin:


Diassomer Mininderian was the wife of the Creator, who betrayed him with a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells. He cast her down with a-Jeroth and made the Land a punishment ground for them.

What was that from?
I don't remember that at all.
Maybe one of those poems/songs that I glossed over?

[Starkin]

Starkin:


Diassomer Mininderian was the wife of the Creator, who betrayed him with a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells. He cast her down with a-Jeroth and made the Land a punishment ground for them.

What was that from?
I don't remember that at all.
Maybe one of those poems/songs that I glossed over?

Sunder told that story to TC and LA after TC was bitten by Marid. TWL, in the chapter "The Corruption of the Sun" pages 145-46, hardcover.

[Rocksister]

Starkin, your topic is fascinating. And the names you created are, IMHO, great and right in keeping with SRD's "methods." I'm sure I'm not alone in having an interest in seeing any maps you might have created for areas outside the Land. There's a link on the homepage for users' art and personal contributions; it might be a good place to post your stuff, if you have any. I check from time to time hoping to find more little cartoons and such. They crack me up; the one about the many faces of Vain still doubles me over and I've seen in a hundred times. The users of this forum are undoubtedly of very high intelligence. Hey, wait, I'm a user, too!!!!

[Starkin]

Starkin, your topic is fascinating.

Wow, thanks!

And the names you created are, IMHO, great and right in keeping with SRD's "methods."

Thanks again! That means a lot to me. I gave those names some serious thought; I wanted to "be true" to SRD. Some of those names I've had for years, especially Glenarbor Rise and Columnar Scree. To me, in "the Land in my head", those places are there.

I'm sure I'm not alone in having an interest in seeing any maps you might have created for areas outside the Land.

I was working on something the other day but then put it aside. I'm so critical of my own work, I didn't feel like it deserved to be seen. But maybe I will put something up... you've certainly boosted my confidence Rocksister! After all, it'll just be my love of the Land in a map form.

I just love the Land so much!