Some Questions for Discussion (SPOILER WARNING)(FOR REAL!)

[dlbpharmd]

what do we know about the Haruchai origins? i don't think SD has addressed this (or if he has, let me know).

Read "Gildenfire." It's non-canonical but it's the closest we've ever seen into the past of the Haruchai.

[Fist and Faith]

in addition, is it impossible for the Theomach to occupy the same time more than once? that is, could he be the Guardian of the One Tree while still running around doing other things? are all the Insequent really just aspects of one being? (heh, maybe that's stretching it )

I won't go as far as you did, but I think the Theomach (or any other Insequent or other character) can occupy the same time more than once. Just my feeling, but...

also, i'd guess that the Elohim were aware of the Haruchai as they seem to be relatively omniscient.

I think not. From TOT:

Daphin turned to Brinn. "You we do not know. Perhaps the tale of your people will interest us."

How this can be has been discussed often, but there it is. Of course, we could say the Elohim are lying yet again, as Findail did when he said there was no Guardian at the One Tree before Berek put one there. But why they would lie about this, I don't know.

and Lord Foul (and through him, the Ravers).

That's certainly possible. Even likely, I guess. But I was only speaking of those we know knew the Haruchai before they came to the Land.

heck, i may even throw in the Demondim/Viles/Ur-Viles/Waynim/Croyel as they seem to know a lot more than they care to reveal.

I wouldn't assume any of these knew the Haruchai before the Haruchai came to the Land. Heck, we don't know if all of them even existed at that point.

[The Dreaming]

also, i'd guess that the Elohim were aware of the Haruchai as they seem to be relatively omniscient.

I think not. From TOT:

Daphin turned to Brinn. "You we do not know. Perhaps the tale of your people will interest us."

How this can be has been discussed often, but there it is. Of course, we could say the Elohim are lying yet again, as Findail did when he said there was no Guardian at the One Tree before Berek put one there. But why they would lie about this, I don't know.
.

I am actually reading TOT now, and I'm not sure that it is simply the facts of the story that interest the Elohim, but the nature of their telling. For example, you can read about the ancient Greek in your history books, but can you truly have an understanding of them untill you read Homer? I think their interests would lie more in knowing how the Haruchai percieve themselves, rather than the simple facts of their existance. They certainly seem nearly omnicient, but also infinitely decietful. (Keep in mind they were one by one trying to remove all impedements to breaking Covenant's mind, and taking the Haruchai out of the picture was absolutely necessary.)

[Rocksister]

First of all, since you have to register separately to get into this forum, if you don't want spoilers, you shouldn't have registered. Secondly, we were all told in the sticky notes what would probably be in here, so it's not like anyone would come in here without fair warning. And third, to do that and know all that and then complain about spoilers is just plain silly. If you used THAT reasoning, you could complain about this whole web site if you hadn't read any of the books at all. The time travel twist has thrown my brain into a tailspin. The possibilities are completely endless. If the Theomach, and others, exist everywhere simultaneously, they could do anything they wanted in any time and make anything turn out any way they wanted to. They could indirectly defeat Foul, influence others to get Covenant to break the Arch, they could rouse the Worm any time they wanted to, etc. What's up with this? It's just a very confusing thing that's really hard for me to follow. I shouldn't have to be a nuclear physicist to read these books. I didn't like the concept from my first exposure to it in ROTE with the caesures. Okay, fire away........

[The Dreaming]

Well, I think you forget what I think was the main theme of the 2nd Chronicles, how power can render you impotent. After all, everything in the land seems to be a two edged sword (except for the white gold) every defeat is a victory; hope and doom are always intertwined. Seadreamer was gifted with a kind of prescience, but rendered mute, I assume the power the insequent have over time follows a similar bend. Perhaps that is what the Mahbdoubt meant by lore over time, the ability to use that power effectively must be near impossible (at least without causing irreparable damage to the AOT or bringing the Elohim down to fix it) Perhaps the Harrow can travel through time just like the Mahbdoubt, but lacks the lore to affect real change.

Covenant was gifted with near omnipotence in the wounded land, and he was never more impotent. In the land, power always exacts a cruel price on the wielder. The kind of power covenant (and the insequent have) seems to be extremely perilous. The elohim are creatures of earthpower, they can do nothing that will harm it. They are also bound by limits, rules, and laws that we cannot fathom. (I imagine Elohim are like the Agents to the Theomach's Neo) Which is why they always seem so frustratingly impotent until the s*** really hits the fan.

(oh and about the spoiler thing, I conceded mostly because I started this thread about a month ago, since I read an ARC )

[Jeroth]

I don't want to come off as a dick, the dreaming, but it's spelled Linden, not Lindon.

[dlbpharmd]

Anyone can make a typo.

[The Dreaming]

Lol, Habit I guess, Lyndon is my RL middle name.

[Jeroth]

yeah I know, no big deal, everyone makes typos.

[Zarathustra]

I think this is the real genius of the story (and I'm sure we don't even know the whole story and plot yet). Linden was pushed into her decisions every step of the way. They wanted her to trust Covenant and Jeremiah enough to follow them to the past, but have enough doubts that she would Command just what she did (that prompt from Esmer - which is why I believe it was a betrayal). She was practically given the Staff at the beginning of Runes (Esmer brought her the ceasure to help her go back), and ever since then her enemies have made it a point to demonstrate to her that her power is not enough - it does not suffice for saving her son and the Land. She's herded into her decision at the end of the book.

Only one problem with this theory: why didn't the "truth," given to her by the power of command, include this extremely useful information? How could Roger lie to her about his intention to rouse the worm, when she has just given the command to know the truth?

[dlbpharmd]

I think this is the real genius of the story (and I'm sure we don't even know the whole story and plot yet). Linden was pushed into her decisions every step of the way. They wanted her to trust Covenant and Jeremiah enough to follow them to the past, but have enough doubts that she would Command just what she did (that prompt from Esmer - which is why I believe it was a betrayal). She was practically given the Staff at the beginning of Runes (Esmer brought her the ceasure to help her go back), and ever since then her enemies have made it a point to demonstrate to her that her power is not enough - it does not suffice for saving her son and the Land. She's herded into her decision at the end of the book.

Only one problem with this theory: why didn't the "truth," given to her by the power of command, include this extremely useful information? How could Roger lie to her about his intention to rouse the worm, when she has just given the command to know the truth?

Good point.

[earthbrah]

Malik23 wrote:

Only one problem with this theory: why didn't the "truth," given to her by the power of command, include this extremely useful information? How could Roger lie to her about his intention to rouse the worm, when she has just given the command to know the truth?

I think it has to do with the nature of the command Linden made. She said, "Show me the truth!" The truth that she commanded was about seeing, not knowing. The descriptions that immediately follow her command deal solely with the appearances of her companions in Melenkurion Skyweir. The rest of what she learned was told to her by Roger, and he certainly could have lied to her.

Even if SRD goofed here, he certainly seems to have plausible denial intact.