Pantheon: The Third Age - Rules and Comments Thread

[The Void]

yeah but the amount of resistance to him viewing your forum leads me to think that the chances of you all keeping him reasonably informed on your own accord is not going to happen.

I know that all the plans I make on any game i play, i always keep the GM well informed. Montressor has helped to no end in develop my faction for border lands, and Lore is ideal for confirming anything I need to know in empires. Xar already knows how I intend to play the void and what i intend to do with it. It makes for a much smoother game.

[uKulwa]

Reasonably is a debateable term. Anyway, it's not my forum. I'm unaligned and intend staying so. So Xar will remain as informed by me as he always has been, which has largely been sufficient. Or at least, he's never said it wasn't.

See, as Fist suggested, why should a forum be any different from an email? Would Xar ask to be copied on every PM I send another player? Or any PM I send for that matter?

I doubt it. Why should this be different?

(I reiterate, this is not my issue at all. I don't care which way it goes. But since it's being debated, you all deserve the benefit of my opinion. ) (Which I have regardless of my lack of involvement. )

(Let's stop arguing and start playing damnit. )

[Loredoctor]

The use of the emoticons has led me to the conclusion as to the uKulwa player's identity.

[uKulwa]

I can't believe it took you this long. I thought it was pretty obvious the whole time.

[Loredoctor]

I can't believe it took you this long. I thought it was pretty obvious the whole time.

I hadn't been paying any attention to anyone's posts, to be honest.

[Brid]

(If anyone cares, doubtful) Brid would welcome the Overgod's access to the Sunrise Court.

[Xar]

Reasonably is a debateable term. Anyway, it's not my forum. I'm unaligned and intend staying so. So Xar will remain as informed by me as he always has been, which has largely been sufficient. Or at least, he's never said it wasn't.

See, as Fist suggested, why should a forum be any different from an email? Would Xar ask to be copied on every PM I send another player? Or any PM I send for that matter?

I doubt it. Why should this be different?

(I reiterate, this is not my issue at all. I don't care which way it goes. But since it's being debated, you all deserve the benefit of my opinion. ) (Which I have regardless of my lack of involvement. )

(Let's stop arguing and start playing damnit. )

Truthfully, I disagree with this. Players who do not want the GM to know what's going on can already use emails or PMs to do so, and it doesn't seem to me I ever required players to forward said emails to me.

However, it's one thing to talk about emails and PMs, and quite another to find out players have whole forums dedicated to the game. A place where they can post "documents" for continued perusal, where they can write their Court's plans so as to easily access them, and argue about Court politics in ways that could or could not be taken as "bending the rules". While I applaud the ingenuity, the fact that I wasn't even notified of their existence (had it not been for some deities asking others to join the forum, I would STILL be unaware of it) heavily suggests that either the players feel I'm the "enemy", or that they don't trust me anyway. And as the Void said, the resistance I'm noticing (by the Sunset Court people anyway, since the Sunrise Court immediately granted me access) seems to me as if players from the Sunset Court intended to do all sorts of things in the forum they didn't want me to know about.

Unfortunately, this means you really undermine my ability to referee the game. Say player X from Court Y has made an Oath to the AllFather to player Z who is unaligned. The Oath says he won't tell the other members of Court Y about what he knows of player Z's plans. Then player X goes on his forum, where the GM is not allowed to look, and freely shares what he knows with the Court members. He could easily do this, and I would not find out unless a player made a revealing mistake afterwards, but he would have broken the AllFather Oath and escaped consequences. Or what if a player wanted to be a deity of knowledge or secrets, and wanted to use its power to find out a secret of the other Court? Am I supposed to ask the Court - so that they know somebody's spying on them?

Sure, you can already do it via email and PMs if you wanted. But BECAUSE you have already so many ways to plan things and keep me in the dark, you really don't need another one.

So here's the thing: as Montressor said, a GM who knows things in advance can prepare needed rules, and cut some slack to players who intend to do something in unison with others but fail to make that clear in their turn orders. He can also cut some slack for players who fail to explain their plans clearly, since he knows about their plans and knows what they want to do.
I'm not going to give a set answer regarding NPC deities or not: frankly, having access to the forum depending on whether I swear there will be or won't be any NPCs doesn't feel very nice. If you want to grant me access to your forum, fine; I appreciate it, and I'll be able to help you have more fun, maybe. If you don't want me to know what you're planning, fine anyway, but expect no help from me whatsoever, and I can guarantee you that I will neither give suggestions nor advice as some players know I have done in the past. And if you make a mistake, you'll live with the consequences.

[I'm Murrin]

Reasonably well informed, I certainly agree with. That's not the same as having full access to every Player-Player strategy debate though.

I don't see how it could be that much of a problem. I've always kept some of my actions secret, but the ones in which I coordinate with others have to of necessity be shared, and I don't have much of a problem discussing them with Xar sometimes so I can work out kinks--and he often points out potential flaws, although sometimes just to deliberately wind me up, I think. I see the Court forums as a way to communicate as a group while keeping it private from the other Court and unaligned players, not as a way to keep it secret from Xar as well. And even within that there will undoubtedly be private communication among players within and between the Courts.
Knowing what the Courts are planning would help him in other ways, as wel--if he knows something of what to expect in the coming turns, won't that make his job of processing them a little bit easier, and get us results potentially a little faster? Unless, as you say, he's playing NPC that are opposed to other players, he has no reason to deliberately sabotage your plans (not that I'm saying he would, but having outside knowledge always affects your actions even when you try not to let it), and I don't know of any instance in which he has tried to sabotage plans that he has known of--except of course when I attempted to take advantage of Nor being on leave, which I shouldn't have and he was right to punish my character for.

[Loredoctor]

Reasonably is a debateable term. Anyway, it's not my forum. I'm unaligned and intend staying so. So Xar will remain as informed by me as he always has been, which has largely been sufficient. Or at least, he's never said it wasn't.

See, as Fist suggested, why should a forum be any different from an email? Would Xar ask to be copied on every PM I send another player? Or any PM I send for that matter?

I doubt it. Why should this be different?

(I reiterate, this is not my issue at all. I don't care which way it goes. But since it's being debated, you all deserve the benefit of my opinion. ) (Which I have regardless of my lack of involvement. )

(Let's stop arguing and start playing damnit. )

Truthfully, I disagree with this. Players who do not want the GM to know what's going on can already use emails or PMs to do so, and it doesn't seem to me I ever required players to forward said emails to me.

However, it's one thing to talk about emails and PMs, and quite another to find out players have whole forums dedicated to the game. A place where they can post "documents" for continued perusal, where they can write their Court's plans so as to easily access them, and argue about Court politics in ways that could or could not be taken as "bending the rules". While I applaud the ingenuity, the fact that I wasn't even notified of their existence (had it not been for some deities asking others to join the forum, I would STILL be unaware of it) heavily suggests that either the players feel I'm the "enemy", or that they don't trust me anyway. And as the Void said, the resistance I'm noticing (by the Sunset Court people anyway, since the Sunrise Court immediately granted me access) seems to me as if players from the Sunset Court intended to do all sorts of things in the forum they didn't want me to know about.

Unfortunately, this means you really undermine my ability to referee the game. Say player X from Court Y has made an Oath to the AllFather to player Z who is unaligned. The Oath says he won't tell the other members of Court Y about what he knows of player Z's plans. Then player X goes on his forum, where the GM is not allowed to look, and freely shares what he knows with the Court members. He could easily do this, and I would not find out unless a player made a revealing mistake afterwards, but he would have broken the AllFather Oath and escaped consequences. Or what if a player wanted to be a deity of knowledge or secrets, and wanted to use its power to find out a secret of the other Court? Am I supposed to ask the Court - so that they know somebody's spying on them?

Sure, you can already do it via email and PMs if you wanted. But BECAUSE you have already so many ways to plan things and keep me in the dark, you really don't need another one.

So here's the thing: as Montressor said, a GM who knows things in advance can prepare needed rules, and cut some slack to players who intend to do something in unison with others but fail to make that clear in their turn orders. He can also cut some slack for players who fail to explain their plans clearly, since he knows about their plans and knows what they want to do.
I'm not going to give a set answer regarding NPC deities or not: frankly, having access to the forum depending on whether I swear there will be or won't be any NPCs doesn't feel very nice. If you want to grant me access to your forum, fine; I appreciate it, and I'll be able to help you have more fun, maybe. If you don't want me to know what you're planning, fine anyway, but expect no help from me whatsoever, and I can guarantee you that I will neither give suggestions nor advice as some players know I have done in the past. And if you make a mistake, you'll live with the consequences.

As a GM myself, I agree completely with Xar's post.

[uKulwa]

Say player X from Court Y has made an Oath to the AllFather to player Z who is unaligned. The Oath says he won't tell the other members of Court Y about what he knows of player Z's plans. Then player X goes on his forum, where the GM is not allowed to look, and freely shares what he knows with the Court members. He could easily do this, and I would not find out unless a player made a revealing mistake afterwards, but he would have broken the AllFather Oath and escaped consequences.

For what it's worth, I agree that this is a valid point. I was thinking more along the lines of, as I said before, player-player strategising, and the lack of necessity for the GM to know the content of all those interactions.

Since I'm not going to be needing the forums for any purpose, and will be sticking to PM's and mails as usual, its not gonna affect me. Personally, for whatever reason, I prefer my moves to be private. If they work they work, if they don't I suck it up and deal with the consequences.

Make up your minds and give Xar access or not as you like. I haven't got a horse in this race, so I should probably shut the hell up. If it comes down to it, I'm in favour of whatever makes it easier and more fun for all of us, including Xar, and I'm eager to get going. (Just don't expect me to trust NPC's. No offence. )

[Fist and Faith]

The point about the Oath is a good one. My way around that in P2 was to tell the deity who wanted something from me to pm or email the following to the Allfather:

I, AK, swear the Oath of the Allfather that, in exchange for Bhakti's blessing/drp/whatever, I will blah blah blah. I will do exactly blah blah blah. I will do nothing but blah blah blah. Etc.

And when the Allfather forwards to me exactly what AK sent, I will agree to the deal. It never actually happened. Either circumstances changed, or the deity in question did not like my plan, or whatever. But that's how I wanted it. Just swearing the Oath in a pm to me is a loophole that deities far less devious than Nor Yekith would have come up with.

As for the question of access. No, Xar, I do not trust you. What if members of the Court disagree about something? What if there's some bickering? The players can get frustrated by another not agreeing. There's no reason to think all will be of the same mind. Hell, there were serious disagreements in the Alliance of P2, and the Alliance's membership was considered and agreed upon. But that doesn't mean the disagreeing Sunrisers want their followers to to be attacking each other, or proselytizing in each others' lands, or anything negative at all. You may think that, since the deities are arguing, those kinds of things should happen, whether the deities want it or not. Again, it's your game, and you are certainly allowed to have the rule that the followers of bickering deities will give each other a hard time. But I disagree, so I will not give you the ammo.

[O-gon-cho]

Hell, there were serious disagreements in the Alliance of P2, and the Alliance's membership was considered and agreed upon.

*hanging head*

I still thank you for your faith and trust in me, my liege...

[stonemaybe]

Fist and Faith wrote:

As for the question of access. No, Xar, I do not trust you. What if members of the Court disagree about something? What if there's some bickering? The players can get frustrated by another not agreeing. There's no reason to think all will be of the same mind. Hell, there were serious disagreements in the Alliance of P2, and the Alliance's membership was considered and agreed upon. But that doesn't mean the disagreeing Sunrisers want their followers to to be attacking each other, or proselytizing in each others' lands, or anything negative at all. You may think that, since the deities are arguing, those kinds of things should happen, whether the deities want it or not. Again, it's your game, and you are certainly allowed to have the rule that the followers of bickering deities will give each other a hard time. But I disagree, so I will not give you the ammo.

I'm sure it's be quite easy to reach an agreement on this - like Gravin Threndor, have a thread in your court for proper roleplaying and a thread for player comments. Make sure Xar knows which is which.

[Loredoctor]

As for the question of access. No, Xar, I do not trust you.

Then why bother playing?

I trust Xar implicitly. I think it's a slap in the face to question his integrity as the GM. He spends hours preparing each turn, not to mention responding to numerous pms and posts, so to distrust him seems a bit much. My own experiences with him in P2 were good. He never favoured me, never told me anything Nor's own spies didn't. I certainly had my own fair share of disasters. Xar is impartial and a damn honest guy.

[Dorian]

And for a bunch of people so keen on the game, I think a few of you are doing a good job of pushing Xar away from you, and there fore the game

Shit, If i was running and game and a player stated directly in a serious manner that they didnt trust me, I would tell them to get fucked, shove it up their fat arse or worse.

Xar seems alot more calm and collective than me however, so you should consider yourself lucky. Its beginning to seem to be more a case of what you have to hide, rather than what you are afraid Xar would do with the information

[Fist and Faith]

What I said is not questioning Xar's integrity. I just disagree with some of his ways of running the game. As GM, it's his choice. No problem. But don't expect me to help hurt my own followers by publically arguing with deities who I do not want to be at odds with. I think we can disagree on issues without acting against each other.

As for favouring you (or, rather, evil deities over good ones), I've discussed the issues I've had both openly and privately with Xar. We don't agree. I'll survive. (At least I have so far. )

Again, Xar runs an extremely fun game!! I have thanked him in the threads several times for the incredible amount of work and imagination that he clearly puts into it. Truly, it's beyond me how he does it! If I didn't love it to death, I wouldn't be playing. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with every policy he has. I must agree to the mechanics of the game. Deadlines; rules about how drp's can be used/traded; how we can act in other domains; etc etc. But I do not have to go along with how my deity communicates with other deities.

[Dorian]

Im hurt that you think the void is evil! Its blatantly in the moral grey area!!!

Gods, get some imagination, you need to understand the higher powers above your heads

[Xar]

I'm not going to beg to be admitted in the Sunset Court forum; I'm not going to make promises about the game just to get into the forum; and I'm not going to accept being admitted only to certain parts of the forum. Here, honestly, you don't get to compromise. You either give me access to the whole forum, or you don't. In the latter case, however you want to put it, it's a matter of trust you're talking about.

Murrin mentioned that I've often been known for giving advice or helping out with plans; I may do so cryptically, but I do so anyway. I try to answer every PM and email regarding rules clarifications I am sent. And I also reward players who have good ideas in the game. I don't have to do this: I do it because I'm glad when players are so interested by the game.
But I promise you: I will NOT do this for players who obviously do not trust me. I'm NOT going to waste my time that way anymore. So, you're free to choose; but you have been warned about the consequences for three times now, and you WILL reap them in the game. And I will NOT cut you some slack with your moves anymore. So if you make a mistake, you'll reap its consequences and I will not accept any complaints or requests for explanation about it. I'd rather spend my time helping other players.

[Astavyastataa Kadna]

As for the question of access. No, Xar, I do not trust you.

Then why bother playing?

I trust Xar implicitly. I think it's a slap in the face to question his integrity as the GM. He spends hours preparing each turn, not to mention responding to numerous pms and posts, so to distrust him seems a bit much. My own experiences with him in P2 were good. He never favoured me, never told me anything Nor's own spies didn't. I certainly had my own fair share of disasters. Xar is impartial and a damn honest guy.

In all truth I also have a problem with this statement, Fist.

While probably not intended, it feels like a personal attack to me. I believe that Xar is motivated by keeping the game enjoyable for everyone - including importantly himself. While we might quarrel with decisions he makes in doing it ... I respectfully suggest you err in phrasing your disagreement this way.

[[Syl]]

Ok, my opinion, also from someone who has no interest in joining either court.

I think Fist is perfectly entitled to his opinion. Just because he likes Xar and the game (which should be obvious to everyone), doesn't mean he has to give up his own opinions, and squelching said opinions would be damaging to the player and the game. If people want to be secretive, they will. And people generally try to do things as efficiently as possible. In the case of coordinating behind the scenes actions, a forum is a much easier... forum for doing so. PMs and e-mail take up memory space (I've had to clear my deities' in boxes several times), are less frequently accessed, requires more organization, etc. The best that this kind of stance can hope to achieve is to make the players' machinations a bit more disorganized. More likely, there will be shadow court forums.

Sorry, but I like surprising Xar as much as he likes surprising us. Call me an arrogant bastard (you won't be the first), but I like to think my skill as a player is equal to his as a GM. And about a third of the fun of this game, for me, is challenging the GM ("what can I get away with this time?" I often ask myself. And because I do, players are often surprised how successful I am at it.) The other two thirds are challenging myself and challenging the other players (the last one having the least precedence). Usually I can manage it on my own, but sometimes it takes help.

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you ("A wise man once told me that paranoia is just another word for 'heightened awareness.'") . IIRC, Fist got hosed big time when Jove voiced a mostly non-in game comment to Xar. So it becomes a question of the risk (of catastrophe) being worth the benefit (of help). And Fist's choice seems to be that he'd rather win or lose on the merit of his own choices. It's not a knock against Xar.

When I talk to Xar (which I do frequently), I treat it like talking to any other deity/player, albeit one with a lot more power and insight. That in itself makes caution more necessary. I don't take everything at face value, and I try to read between the lines. And just like with any other similar conversation, there's also the risk that I also may let something drop that I didn't intend to (which I have certainly done at least once). *shrug* It's fun.