The Theomach & time travel

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:50 pm

Did Brinn show up in Andelain? I don't remember that.

Post by **Aleksandr** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:40 pm

Brinn is presumably still alive, guarding the One Tree, in whatever state it's in after the Isle collapsed.
Several other Linden-related ghosts were missing from Andelain though: Cail, Seadreamer, the First and Pitchwife (you don't have to die horribly or in the Land to show up in Andelain). Perhaps the Mahdout should have been there too.

Post by **The Dreaming** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:59 am

Just Reread the last few pages of FR; Cail, Ceer, and Hergom are all in Andelain, Brinn is conspicuously absent. I don't know why my memory decieved me into thinking that Brinn was there too. *shrugs*

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:52 pm

The Dreaming wrote:Just Reread the last few pages of FR; Cail, Ceer, and Hergom are all in Andelain, Brinn is conspicuously absent. I don't know why my memory decieved me into thinking that Brinn was there too. *shrugs*

Maybe Brinn is absent because he's still alive?

Post by **Theomach** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:47 am

my understanding is that the Theomach can travel thru time at will and his only concern is how the timeline is shaped. i also agree that he is most definitely not dead.

as for the question of how he travels thru time, it is like any other power... there is more than one way and Caesures are not the only method of time travel. i think even the Mahdoubt's method differs from the Theomachs.

the Law of Time... and this is just my method of making it work, is that the Theomach isn't breaking it... more like bending it and shaping it. like a tree by the woodhelvenin.

my big question regarding the Theomach is, "what is his 'knowledge?'" i mean, what is he studying and why? is it to deal w/ Lord Foul?

(and how many more insequent are there? are they as many as the Elohim?)

Post by **lurch** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:10 pm

my big question regarding the Theomach is, "what is his 'knowledge?'" i mean, what is he studying and why? is it to deal w/ Lord Foul?

perhaps Theomach is " Compassion"....which includes at least the acknowledgment and " acceptance" of Lord Foul.

The Theomach's " Why"?,,perhaps in Compassion, is Hope.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:46 pm

I got it! Covenant becomes the Theomach!! Yes! That's how the Theomach knows everything; he's been part of the AoT, and watched everything, beginning to end!!

Post by **iQuestor** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:17 pm

OK guys, I have had a revelation:

What if the Theomach experiences time backwards rather than forwards?
Doesnt this explain a lot?

When Roger and Linden met him, what if that was the Theomach of Berek's time, already there waiting? He knew roger would show up, so he diverts him away from Melenkurion Skyweir. He would at that time know everything that had occurred in the future, because it was his past.

I think this could explain a lot. What do you guys think? Is there anything in the text to refute that?

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:25 pm

iQuestor wrote:OK guys, I have had a revelation:

What if the Theomach experiences time backwards rather than forwards?
Doesnt this explain a lot?

When Roger and Linden met him, what if that was the Theomach of Berek's time, already there waiting? He knew roger would show up, so he diverts him away from Melenkurion Skyweir. He would at that time know everything that had occurred in the future, because it was his past.

I think this could explain a lot. What do you guys think? Is there anything in the text to refute that?

If it's anything like Merlin was supposed to travel "sideways" through time I'm going to stop paying much attention to the Theomach because Merlin never made any sense to me at all.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:29 pm

Well, he showed up in Andelain, so he can't still be Guardian of the One Tree

I didn't see or read that.. I know Cail showed up with the others Harachrai. But Brinn wasn't there.

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:38 pm

I think that the Theomach can travel through time.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:59 pm

A point to ponder. When Linden met the Theomach, how was the Theomach dressed?
Almost like a loose fitted mummy on how I remember.
His face wasn't seen by Linden. Yet he told her that she knew his name!

If the Theomach can travel thru time, could it be that he looks like Brinn?

and remember in TOT that Brinn did not kill the guardian, he defeated him. Brinn explain he was the Guardian and others whom held the guardianship.

Post by **The Dreaming** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:36 pm

Perhaps when the theomach told Linden she knew his name, he didn't mean Ak-Haru (etc.) He really meant she knew him as Brinn of the Haruchai. From reading the One Tree Ak-Haru... (etc.) seems to be more of a title than a name anyway.

Post by **earthbrah** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:27 pm

I'd say that the Insequent definitely have something to do with a contradiction with the normal, linear sequence of time. The idea of them living backwards, as it were, is a neat idea, though the text doesn't seem to give any clear clues to this. But I can't discount it outright.

So, let's assume that's true for the moment. If so, then there would seem to be a more fluid nature to the structure of time than we would like to believe. It's an arch because its flow is like a feedback loop upon itself. And in a place like the Land, beings like the Insequent would be expected. It might also explain why the Elohim dislike them so much; it's in their very nature to dislike beings whose essential nature opposes strict (forward?) linearity.

"Things that make me go hmmmm..."

Post by **earthbrah** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:51 pm

Oooh, something else I just remembered that is worthy of posting...

I read a quote last night from something called "A Course in Miracles." The quote goes like this: The resurrection is the denial of death, being the assertion of life. Thus is all the thinking of the world reversed entirely.

Assuming that what I said before in this thread has any merit, then the Insequent may well become much more important in the last two installments. Covenant was resurrected (wasn't the Law of Death broken by Elena???) in Andelain; the Worm is supposedly roused, which will cause the destruction of the Earth and all Time, the cosmos. BUT, we have two books to go! This can't be the case. Thus, "all the thinking of the world [must therefore be] reversed entirely?" If so, how do the Insequent play their apparently anti-Elohim role?

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:58 pm

First of all, I cannot help upon reading this thread that the Theomach has gone through a lot of effort such that we cannot see his face. Now, the Insequent are a crazy bunch. Then again, someone could easily pass themself off as Insequent by being crazy.

So... I think that the Theomach might be someone we know by another name. Or will know. Not Brinn -- that is who he would become, by absorbing Brinn about 5000 years later. So that could not be what he meant by saying that Linden knew his name. Maybe he is Jeremiah.

Insequent, as I posted in another thread, means not following from one thing to the next. As a race name, it does seem to point to a facility with time - they are not bound by time's linearity - they are not sequential, if you will.

But that interpretation makes no sense if all Insequent don't have time travel ability.

But I had forgotton that the Vizard has his slow time skill. That leaves the Harrow as the only Insequent who does not have some sort of facilty with Time that we know of. So of course I must suspect that he does, and we have not encountered it yet. Get ready for a surprise!

As for the Theomach's vs the Mahdoubt's skills, the quotes posted here lead me to believe that the Theomach is able to "see" across time as well as go across time. He can probably see his own future.

Certainly he was able to detect Roger and Jeremiah's trip into time in order to divert it. That in and of itself speaks volumes. First, he was able to see it happening. (Although, if he is from the future, that might not require too much.) Second, he was able to travel to the correct place and the correct time. Third, he was able to affect someone elses journey through time.

THAT one is the whopper. Does he divert time travellers to alternate destinations? Or does he, like the Mahdoubt, pick them up and move them immediately upon the completion of their journey. Either way ... that's powerful. If he was opposed to Linden, things would be bad.

His origin could therefore be any time, any place.

The craziest part in my book is how he and Roger seemed to know each other so well. Roger has been in the Land exactly as long as Linden has, the odd time trip aside. Since the Elohim and the Theomach theorhetically prevented all other time travel, we must assume that the Theomach was at some point in Linden's "present" time.

How did they meet? What did they talk about? Was the Theomach "the Theomach", or was he present as his to-be-revealed alternate identity.

Post by **variol son** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:54 pm

Wayfriend wrote:That leaves the Harrow as the only Insequent who does not have some sort of facility with Time that we know of. So of course I must suspect that he does, and we have not encountered it yet. Get ready for a surprise!

But we have encountered it. The Harrow has the ability to move from place to place, within the same time, apparently without having to actually travel the distance between the two points.

This strikes me as being quite similar to the Ranyhyn's ability to answer the call of their rider no matter where they are and where the rider is, and as we were told in Runes of the Earth, this is a power not over distance but over time.

Post by **DukkhaWaynhim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:34 am

This is a great thread. I wish I had found it before I started one of my own, The Continuity of Time, to discuss much of the same topic. Mods may wish to combine, or maybe it warrants its own thread. I don't know...

dw

Post by **earthbrah** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:55 am

I agree with Wayfriend; the strangest part about the Theomach is the fact that he and Roger seem to know each other so well. When we thought Roger was TC, this didn't surprise me as much, but once it was revealed that Roger was infact not TC, that whole interchange in "Interference" took on a more significant flavor.

And yes, I hadn't thought about it too much, but the fact that the Theomach never shows his face must be strongly significant. For me, it doesn't make sense to think that he's Brinn--Linden might have recognized his voice. But who then?

All thinking about the world has been reversed. Ok, maybe not reversed, but there's more that we don't know than we do.

Post by **emotional leper** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:28 am

I think the Theomach is exactly who he appears to be: Kenausten Ardenol (sp?). Linden would have already known his name. And his face would have to be hidden so she wouldn't recognise him as the Guardian of the One Tree and accidently (unknowingly) blurt out his name and then he would have to answer questions which he (and Jerimiah and Roger) wouldn't want answered.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Theomach & time travel