Plot hole? ***SPOILERS*** of course

[burgs]

We're led to believe that Roger is hiding his hand when around Berek so as to NOT cause any effect that could affect the Land's history, and thus destroy the Arch of Time.

But why? What was stopping him, at that point, from doing just that? He's already traveled back in time with the blessing of the Elohim and at least one of the Insequent. It would have been so easy to alter time. Linden came darn close herself.

But more importantly, if the Elohim are ready to allow Roger and a croyel - a CROYEL for God's sake! - to travel back in time so long as they have Linden, what's to stop a Raver from going back in time with them, or by him/itself and altering the history of the land so severely that the Arch of Time crumbles? Or Lord Foul himself? The Elohim have said that their purposes are different from his, and they have essentially ignored him during the entire history of the Earth, which I would guess is a very long time.

It seems that with Roger and the croyel being where they are, when they are, they could have accomplished their purpose without relying on EarthBlood to rouse the Worm. And that any of Foul's minions could do the same, especially as Joan and Jeremiah belong to Foul.

I don't understand all of this pussyfooting around. The Law of Time has been broken. Break the Arch. Foul shouldn't need help. And his harsh defeats at the hands of Covenenant, along with other setbacks, MUST have altered his opinion on whether he's been managing his "portfolio" correctly.

Are the Elohim really that frickin' stupid? As long as Linden is around, they won't bother with Roger and a CROYEL time hopping? That just doesn't make sense. The possibilities for error (like the encounter with the Viles) are far too numerous.

The Elohim wanted to stop Linden when she was going to Andelain. We should believe that they have enough foresight to want to forestall that, but not enough for Rog/Lin/Croy?

This has been bugging me.

[ur-Thor]

The whole business of time travel is a tricky thing for sure, it seems as though everyone is afraid of altering "history" according to the people, but I think any change of past events would alter the time line, even if it were just something as seemingly insignificant as taking a breath and then a step. If three people suddenly appeared in a past instance I think that that alone would cause just as much of a ripple effect in time as anything that might affect the recorded history of the people from that time. basically I'm saying that if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? yes ..those sound waves still ripple through the air. just because there was no one there to hear it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

so I think the most logical assumption would be that things went down exactly as they were supposed to, Roger, Jeremiah and Linden were exactly where they were supposed to be, and that things unfolded as they should have all along, thanks to the Theomach who was also where he was supposed to be but was somehow also conscious of it, thus history as the people knew it remained as it was and the past went down just as it should have, most likely the Elohim knew this.

but that's just my guess.

[Xar]

Somewhere between Runes and FR it was also stated that the Law of Time has a certain amount of "flexibility", so basically changes that were not too momentous could perhaps be "incorporated" into the timestream and, in so doing, not break the Law of Time. It's like throwing a pebble in a river - you get ripples, but they eventually die down and the river is unchanged. If you instead throw a boulder...

Anyway, after the revelation of Roger and the croyel, I thought that the reason why he was hiding his hand in his pocket during the meeting with Berek was partly because of the halfhand, and partly because that was the Kastenessen-hand: if anyone in the camp had seen a halfhand like Berek's, they would have at least talked about it, and they would have been very interested in it; maybe he feared that this would eventually risk someone finding out about the Kastenessen-hand...

[dlbpharmd]

Anyway, after the revelation of Roger and the croyel, I thought that the reason why he was hiding his hand in his pocket during the meeting with Berek was partly because of the halfhand, and partly because that was the Kastenessen-hand: if anyone in the camp had seen a halfhand like Berek's, they would have at least talked about it, and they would have been very interested in it; maybe he feared that this would eventually risk someone finding out about the Kastenessen-hand...

Agreed, I thought Covenant/Roger was trying to hide the halfhand also. Xar's right when he says that this would have attracted alot of attention.

[burgs]

so I think the most logical assumption would be that things went down exactly as they were supposed to, Roger, Jeremiah and Linden were exactly where they were supposed to be, and that things unfolded as they should have all along, thanks to the Theomach who was also where he was supposed to be but was somehow also conscious of it, thus history as the people knew it remained as it was and the past went down just as it should have, most likely the Elohim knew this.

but that's just my guess.

The Mahdoubt told Linden, after her tussle with Roger and the croyel that

Time has been made fragile. It must not be challenged further.

That seems to indicate that things haven't gone exactly as planned. If they had, time wouldn't have "been made fragile".

But what troubles me more is the remainder of my initial post. It seems that if Foul wanted to break the arch, that he should be able to. He controls Joan, caesures are everywhere, why not send a Raver back to a time when the Illearth Stone was still around, and have the Raver set about ravaging history, thus breaking the Arch.

But that's just one example - there are hundreds, thousands of possibilities - or so it seems to me.

[wayfriend]

I agree: it was the half-hand. If anyone had been able to see through his illusion and see the skurj-hand, then putting it in his pocket would hardly have helped hide it.

As to the reasoning behind Roger and Jeremiah's trip back in time ... nothing about that makes sense to me at all.

[burgs]

Anyway, after the revelation of Roger and the croyel, I thought that the reason why he was hiding his hand in his pocket during the meeting with Berek was partly because of the halfhand, and partly because that was the Kastenessen-hand: if anyone in the camp had seen a halfhand like Berek's, they would have at least talked about it, and they would have been very interested in it; maybe he feared that this would eventually risk someone finding out about the Kastenessen-hand...

Agreed, I thought Covenant/Roger was trying to hide the halfhand also. Xar's right when he says that this would have attracted alot of attention.

But Roger's purpose was to engage in an activity that would break the Arch. Showing his hand to Berek, or doing just about anything - showing his true self and tossing magma and brimstone at Berek, assassinating him, for example - would have broken the Arch. Showing his hand may have done enough damage to destroy the Arch. Perhaps Berek would have seen it for what it was, attacked him... any number of possibilities, all of which could shatter the Arch.

And I just can't accept that Roger desired Linden's despair so greatly that he would pass up such a perfect opportunity (messing with Berek, somehow). Sure, the Theomach was there, but he's hardly all powerful. Roger made him "disappear" once, and when he first detected the Theomach, he raged at him, saying, essentially, that he could hurt him if he wanted to.

[dlbpharmd]

I don't think Roger just wanted to break the Arch; he wanted to do it in such a way that he would be in absolute control and then survive to become a god. I think in his delusion he believed that by using the Power of Command to awaken the Worm he would have survived.

[wayfriend]

But Roger's purpose was to engage in an activity that would break the Arch. Showing his hand to Berek, or doing just about anything - showing his true self and tossing magma and brimstone at Berek, assassinating him, for example - would have broken the Arch.

Like I said. It doesn't make any sense.

But I'm sure that Roger's explanation is false.

[burgs]

I don't think Roger just wanted to break the Arch; he wanted to do it in such a way that he would be in absolute control and then survive to become a god. I think in his delusion he believed that by using the Power of Command to awaken the Worm he would have survived.

I don't see how that would have ensured his survival - even to a warped mind. It wasn't in the text (IMHO).

(Aside from that, we all know that Foul's promises aren't worth shit, and Roger won't be going anywhere.)

[burgs]

But Roger's purpose was to engage in an activity that would break the Arch. Showing his hand to Berek, or doing just about anything - showing his true self and tossing magma and brimstone at Berek, assassinating him, for example - would have broken the Arch.

Like I said. It doesn't make any sense.

But I'm sure that Roger's explanation is false.

Yeah, I trust Roger as much as I trust Foul.

[CT]

We're all assuming Roger is working for Foul, right? Foul has said he isn't taking an active role in events, just "whispering a word of counsel here and there" or whatever. Roger is pretty clearly working for Kastenessen more than Foul - are we 100% convinced Foul and Kastenessen have the same goals in mind? We're told by Roger after the reveal that he was trying to break the arch and that the croyel/Jeremiah and him have an escape plan, but there's a chance Roger's lying. We never got to see exactly what he was going to Command.

My working assumption since that point of the story was that Roger was lying about his purpose w/ Linden back in time, for exactly the reasons listed in the posts above - he could have accomplished that purpose any number of ways. Maybe Kastenessen is still enough of an Elohim that he isn't able to bring himself to end the world, despite his suffering, and Roger being part-Kastenessen would share that.

So, to me Roger had some other reason to be there, which might have been to make events unfold EXACTLY as they did - direct end result being the resurrection of his Dad. It was the events back in time that turned Linden's heart to "blackness" or whatever, and resulted in Caerroil Wildwood's role in altering the SoL which enabled Linden's purpose.

Why else was Roger-as-TC so obviously an a-hole? He was stringing Linden along, giving her enough doubt to ultimately result in her Command. He was in a huge hurry, and seemingly nervous about it, probably because he couldn't be certain as to when Linden would catch on. He needed her to figure it out really close to the EB so that she would use the PoC to reveal him and the croyel and thus start her down the path to TC's resurrection.

At least that's how I see it

[Xar]

I assume Roger actually said the truth as he perceived it - he may be a servant of Kastenessen's and Foul's, but he's not stupid and he's not suicidal. He's not as narrow-minded as the Ravers are, either, so I suspect he truly believed he could use the EarthBlood to destroy the world and become a god.

The idea, as far as I could see, is that the whole charade was necessary to maneuver Linden properly. Sure, Roger could have tried to destroy the Law of Time by, say, attempting to murder Berek; but if he had failed, he would have shown his true colors and Linden wouldn't have trusted him anymore. He might have left her in the past, sure, but even so he wouldn't have maneuvered in a position as potentially compromising as the one she was when she reached the EarthBlood.

Consider: if Roger had tried to break the Arch of Time himself as soon as he was in the past, he would have risked being stopped by Linden (for all of Roger's attitude, Linden's suspicion was more evident the first half of the journey, so he had to assume she'd be on her guard), in which case he could have escaped and leave her stranded in the past... but he wouldn't have given her chances to break the Arch herself (like he did when she met the Viles and risked meeting the Forestal), and would have forfeited the additional chance that she might trust him just enough to let him drink the EarthBlood (thereby having yet another chance to break the Arch). In short, the course Roger followed was the one with the highest chance of success - while the other was a gambit which could very well result in an all-or-nothing. And given that Foul is a calculating bastard ("it boots nothing to avoid his snares, for they are ever beset by other snares..."), the path Roger took stinks of Foul - basically, if not for the Mahdoubt's existence, no matter what Linden would have done, she would have broken the Arch herself.

Not to mention that Roger said that if Foul doesn't intend to keep his word and take him and the croyel out of the world to make them gods, Jeremiah would be used to make a door outside the Arch; presumably this means that both Jeremiah and Roger need to be uninvolved in the action that brings down the Arch, so that the former can have time to build the door and the latter can pass through it. And don't forget that Roger has Foul's hunger for despair. Therefore, it's better to him to have Linden destroy the Arch: she'll give him time to escape, and he'll enjoy her despair.

[Ur Dead]

We're led to believe that Roger is hiding his hand when around Berek so as to NOT cause any effect that could affect the Land's history, and thus destroy the Arch of Time

Wouldn't have made a difference as far as Roger hiding his hand or even if it was TC.

The legend of Berek wasn't created untill well afterwards. Plus there probably alot of his soldiers who had disfigurments.

Could be the reason wa that maybe some of Berek people may see what Rogers hand really looked like or it was done for effect on the storyline. (so to speak, that Linden would think in other terms relating to breaking the Arch)

As far as the story, the AoT was a bit more stronger to asorb the multi half-hands running around. If it wasn't the case then the ceasures and the Elohim's ability to cross time would have undone it a long time ago.
Roger's time traveling would have caused a rupture by itself.

Now if Roger and Jerry were able to get to the time of Damelon. Then things would have much different. They would have had the chance to kill
Damelon Giantfriend and cause much havoc. They could have prevented Loric from being born (maybe - and no Loric's Krill) or Amok being created. (who needs a guide when Damelon's Door doesn't exist) These could be events that rip the AoT.

[Corwin]

This is pretty simple guys and gals, i don't see why everyone is running in circles looking for constant plot holes in something that is explained or at least IMPLIED from the very beginning of the time with Rog/croy/lin/THEOMACH. The Theomach brought them there, with the sufferance of the Elohim. He was responsible for them, and should ANY of them commit an act, or even ATTEMPT to commit an act of temporal violation, then he would have slipped between instants, removed the threat, and straightened things out before the consequences of those actions could manifest. Therefore, Roger and the Croyel HAD to play nice until they got away from the Theomach's grasp, and once they got away, they had one or two chances to get linden to screw up on her own (Which, as some of you already stated, They would enjoy a lot more than doing it themselves), but why should they make petty little attempts at destroying the arch when the failure of those actions would immediately give themselves away to linden? THEY WERE ON THE WAY TO THE EARTHBLOOD, if they just kept quiet and continued to twist the knife into linden's guts a bit longer, they would have a direct chance of commanding TWOTWE into awakening, which seems to me to be the LARGEST opportunity to both destroy the world and utterly ruin linden.

Why did roger hide his hand? He could have possibly been trying to convey to linden that he was concerned about the whole "half-hand" bit, but more than likely, it was because of Berek's awakening health-sense and the fact that he is "Full of Earthpower". He burned Berek when he fell on him..... and his firey power is concentrated in his new hand. So here we can see that Berek is on guard against some strange power, and we can infer from this that he would be more closely scrutinizing Rog/Croy. Linden is already distracted and distraught by everything going on, so Rog/croy are closed to her, but we have to leave open the possibility that Berek's perception could possibly surpass linden's. Many of you have participated in those previous discussions of linden's lack of perception this time around, so that shouldn't be too much of a stretch for you. (BTW, my take on her diminished perceptions is along the lines of "You're just not applying yourself hard enough!" along with some other subtleties, im sure.) Did we mention that the hand he has used to belong to a Elohim? That's gotta pack quite a punch, but it must put off a lot of unwanted radiance in some form or another. So, hiding his hand in his pocket could have been a symbolic way of further cloaking his inner identity by hiding a false construct inside of another one (First Construct = false hand, Second Construct = his pocket) Kinda like wearing two condoms instead of one.

I've noticed that this sounds like a rant, and i apologize for the lack of formality. I am currently in a Molecular Bio. lecture and I am obviously not entirely here...... or there, for that matter. So lets recap to make sure i covered this adequately. The Theomach guarded against anything bad that might happen until they departed his range of influence, after that point, though there were opportunities for some screwing around on everyone's part, the badguys would rather wait for the big pay off at the end than stop short after all of their endeavors. The Elohim suck, so lets leave the out of this. and Berek...... Ah Berek..... He's obviously a work in progress at that stage in the game, but he has natural endowments which Roger concedes to, and the Theomach implies. He's not as blind as his speech and circumstances make him to seem and roger more than likely had just cause to be afraid of Berek discovering his true nature.

Ok.... Im done ranting. BTW, i haven't finished the book yet, so get ready for a lot more over analyzed, highly biased and somewhat logical discussion and debate from this corner. Peace out folks!

[burgs]

I don't think it's that simple. If it is, and that's the explanation we have, then I think that the question of the Insequent being deux es machina - a cheap plot device - is a valid question.

About his hand: I'm not making a big deal out of that. What concerns me is not so much Roger's/Linden's/the croyel's journey in time, it's what the possibilities are for everybody else.

If Roger and the croyel can move through time, then it stands to reason that Foul should be able to think of a better way to ensure the destruction of the Arch than leaving it in the hands of those two - highly unreliable, and at least one of them is mentally unstable. Foul has Joan in his power. If the Demondim can get at the Illearth Stone (one of *many* banes - I certainly hope we see more in these Last Chronicles), then Foul should be able to as well. Sure, it didn't work for him the last time he used it, but he's smarter now - and he doesn't have Covenant standing in his way (not directly, at least). All he has to do is alter time. For someone who created the Sunbane, I'm expecting a bit more from Foul.


And this is why time travel stories are such a bitch.

[wayfriend]

Sure, Roger could have tried to destroy the Law of Time by, say, attempting to murder Berek; but if he had failed, he would have shown his true colors and Linden wouldn't have trusted him anymore.

But he could have gone back in time and killed Berek without Linden. And killed him before he had any power, for that matter. That's what's so screwy - if Roger and Jeremiah's croyel can time travel, then there's no end to what they can do to threaten the Arch. Heck, bring some skurj somewhere.

He was responsible for them, and should ANY of them commit an act, or even ATTEMPT to commit an act of temporal violation, then he would have slipped between instants, removed the threat, and straightened things out before the consequences of those actions could manifest.

But there is no indication that the Theomach is a time traveller!

Just because he is Insequent doesn't mean he can travel through time. The only one who could do that was the Mahdoubt as far as we know.

Yes, he knows about time travel, and he was able to alter Roger and Jeremiah's time travel, but that's not the same as being able to do it himself. I don't see any evidence of where he did it himself. Nor did he cause Roger and Jeremiah to time travel, he only altered the destination of a time travel initiated by someone else.

[Xar]

Sure, Roger could have tried to destroy the Law of Time by, say, attempting to murder Berek; but if he had failed, he would have shown his true colors and Linden wouldn't have trusted him anymore.

But he could have gone back in time and killed Berek without Linden. And killed him before he had any power, for that matter. That's what's so screwy - if Roger and Jeremiah's croyel can time travel, then there's no end to what they can do to threaten the Arch. Heck, bring some skurj somewhere.

Not really - the Theomach mentions that if he had not altered Roger's time travel destination, the Elohim would have. He also mentions that the reason why the Elohim do not intervene in order to stop Roger directly is because Linden is with Roger and so they leave it all up to her. So, in short, if Roger and the croyel had traveled back in time without Linden, the Elohim would have showed up and pummeled Roger back into his proper time (or worse). Linden was Roger's "insurance policy" against the Elohim. It is ALSO inferred from all this that Linden could stop Roger if he tried to alter history (say, to kill Berek), or at least the Elohim think she could. And - as said before - the Theomach took responsibility for Roger's and the croyel's actions during the time displacement, so it is likely, even though it is not proved, that he could, indeed, travel in time (or at least prevent others from harming time). This is also indirectly referred to by Roger, who knows the Theomach's name (if the Theomach couldn't travel through time, how could Roger know him, given that he was already either dead or transfigured into Brinn when Roger came to the Land? I doubt Kastenessen or Foul would tell Roger "by the way, just in case you happen to meet a fellow clothed in bandages, that's the Theomach, and he can do this and this")...

[burgs]

So, in short, if Roger and the croyel had traveled back in time without Linden, the Elohim would have showed up and pummeled Roger back into his proper time (or worse). Linden was Roger's "insurance policy" against the Elohim.

And again - since the Elohim have said that they don't care about Foul (to paraphrase it) why doesn't Foul travel back in time?

There are only so many times that we as readers can expect Foul to stand back and watch things unfold, when he could achieve his goals by himself - better and faster.

So far, in this Last Chronicles, it seems that Foul is more capable than ever of directly influencing events. Time travel wasn't an option in the First and Second Chrons, but it is now - and one person can alter the course of time.

[Ur Dead]

Question: If Foul did travel back in time. Would he be aware of himself? He might be so egotical that he could end up fighting himself.

If he appeared after a one of his down periods there might not be enough resources for him to gain an upper hand.

or maybe it is the Arch that prevents him from doing that. Since it is the Arch that is his prison. It may constrain him.

It may be a the Binding Law of Time that Foul is trying to destroy or break so he can achieve travel.