Plot hole? ***SPOILERS*** of course

Book 2 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by wayfriend »

Xar wrote:Not really - the Theomach mentions that if he had not altered Roger's time travel destination, the Elohim would have.
Okay. So the Elohim are preventing all time travel. And so the only way Roger could go back in time and get to the Blood is to take Linden. Because then the Elohim would not stop them; they would rely on Linden to. If I understand this theory correctly.

Which means that Linden is the only one allowed to travel backwards in time. At least as far as the Elohim are concerned.

I suppose Esmer must get a special dispensation for some reason. The Elohim did not stop him bringing forward the Demondim. Unless, again, they knew that Linden would take care of it.

And they didn't stop the Demondim from going backward in time to get to the Illearth Stone. Again, I suppose because Linden would deal with it.

And they didn't stop the Mahdoubt from going back in time. Because Linden yada yada yada.

So, in other words ... nobody was doing any travelling backwards in time until inden came along. Poor Linden.

This doesn't hold up somwhere. But I can't put my finger on it.
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Post by Ur Dead »

Maybe the Arch is not a thing but sentient.
But it also may focus on what Linden Avery does. Her free will, her ability to learn what needs to be done. Maybe like I said that there is a Law of Time that is containing or contraining the others.
Maybe Linden is a focal point of time and what she does or doesn't do will be a deciding factor.

Bravo SRD. you closed some old doors and open a few new one.

I say we need more time travel.. this seems to be the object that Foul is attacking.
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Post by burgs »

Wayfriend wrote: Okay. So the Elohim are preventing all time travel. And so the only way Roger could go back in time and get to the Blood is to take Linden. Because then the Elohim would not stop them; they would rely on Linden to. If I understand this theory correctly.

Which means that Linden is the only one allowed to travel backwards in time. At least as far as the Elohim are concerned.

I suppose Esmer must get a special dispensation for some reason. The Elohim did not stop him bringing forward the Demondim. Unless, again, they knew that Linden would take care of it.

And they didn't stop the Demondim from going backward in time to get to the Illearth Stone. Again, I suppose because Linden would deal with it.

And they didn't stop the Mahdoubt from going back in time. Because Linden yada yada yada.

So, in other words ... nobody was doing any travelling backwards in time until inden came along. Poor Linden.

This doesn't hold up somwhere. But I can't put my finger on it.
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Post by tonyz »

One thing to keep in mind is that when Linden issues her Command to Roger and Jeremiah, "Show me the truth!", I don't think they can resist it.

(Though they did both at one point exist beyond the Arch of Time, so perhaps the Power doesn't really have any sway over them at all... )
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Post by burgs »

I think that the Power of Command would affect anyone, regardless of their origin - just as hurtloam healed TC when he first came to the Land.
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Post by wayfriend »

No, the power is limited, as tonyz says.
In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"The first of these hazards - first, but perhaps not foremost - is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged-the Power cannot compel him.
Which brings up another point.
In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command - but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. ... Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."
Was Linden "betrayed" by something she could not "forsee", which will "recoil" upon her?!?!

Or is she the superest awesomest person in the Land, who found a way to use the Power of Command without any negative side effects?

If the latter, die THOOLAH die. :)

If the former, then we need to figure out how "Show me the truth" would recoil against her.
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Post by burgs »

Hmm. So...why did Roger change back into himself? I guess the easy way out would be to say that he willed it so, that it was always his intent to egg on Linden, and destroy her, face to face.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

burgs wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:I don't think Roger just wanted to break the Arch; he wanted to do it in such a way that he would be in absolute control and then survive to become a god. I think in his delusion he believed that by using the Power of Command to awaken the Worm he would have survived.
I don't see how that would have ensured his survival - even to a warped mind. It wasn't in the text (IMHO).

(Aside from that, we all know that Foul's promises aren't worth shit, and Roger won't be going anywhere.)
How else did Roger think that he and Jeremiah would be gods, if they didn't survive the awakening of the Worm?
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Post by Seppi2112 »

While Roger and Jeremiah are from outside the land, Kastenessen's power was what was cloaking them and is land-borne.

And as far as why Esmer could time travel while the Elohim prevent all others, I don't believe they have any power over him - he's part Elohim.

And the Demondim didn't go back in time to find the IES, they just tapped its power - they never actually brought it anywhere.
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Post by burgs »

dlbpharmd wrote:
burgs wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:I don't think Roger just wanted to break the Arch; he wanted to do it in such a way that he would be in absolute control and then survive to become a god. I think in his delusion he believed that by using the Power of Command to awaken the Worm he would have survived.
I don't see how that would have ensured his survival - even to a warped mind. It wasn't in the text (IMHO).

(Aside from that, we all know that Foul's promises aren't worth shit, and Roger won't be going anywhere.)
How else did Roger think that he and Jeremiah would be gods, if they didn't survive the awakening of the Worm?
I didn't think I said that correctly.

I'm sure that Roger believes it, and believes he'll survive the awakening of the Worm. We all know, however, that Foul doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself, and any promises he makes to (of all people) the son of the man who twice defeated him, and a creature who demnifies (Donaldson's word) the dark places of the Earth are worthless promises. Fool's gold.
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Post by Mortice Root »

Wayfriend said
Which brings up another point.
In The Illearth War was wrote:
"But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command - but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. ... Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."

Was Linden "betrayed" by something she could not "forsee", which will "recoil" upon her?!?!

Or is she the superest awesomest person in the Land, who found a way to use the Power of Command without any negative side effects?
I assumed that because she was ordering something small in scope, she avoided the potentially terrible consequences. I mean, she ordered Roger and the Croyel to reveal themselves, she didn't raise a powerful spirit from the dead and send him to combat the most powerful being in the Land.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

burgs wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
burgs wrote: I don't see how that would have ensured his survival - even to a warped mind. It wasn't in the text (IMHO).

(Aside from that, we all know that Foul's promises aren't worth shit, and Roger won't be going anywhere.)
How else did Roger think that he and Jeremiah would be gods, if they didn't survive the awakening of the Worm?
I didn't think I said that correctly.

I'm sure that Roger believes it, and believes he'll survive the awakening of the Worm. We all know, however, that Foul doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself, and any promises he makes to (of all people) the son of the man who twice defeated him, and a creature who demnifies (Donaldson's word) the dark places of the Earth are worthless promises. Fool's gold.
I can agree with that. :D

Here's a question - is the effect of Linden's Command permanent or transient? Will she always be able to "see the truth?"
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Post by Aleksandr »

I'm surprised no one has mentiond this, but in WGW we were explicitly told that Foul does not want to waken the Worm or break the Arcjh of Time unless he has possession of the White Gold. Otherwise he's toast too. Presumably Roger is smart enough to know that as well.
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Post by burgs »

Aleksandr wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentiond this, but in WGW we were explicitly told that Foul does not want to waken the Worm or break the Arcjh of Time unless he has possession of the White Gold. Otherwise he's toast too. Presumably Roger is smart enough to know that as well.
You're absolutely right. WGW, paperback pg 28 - Findail
"The Despiser is not mad. Should he rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?
Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention to the Worm. But this statement is given and accepted as fact without (as far as I can see) reason. Foul is a "god" - if the Worm wakes up and eats the world, why is Foul's survival dependent on wild magic?
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Post by Corwin »

Ok, Again. The Elohim would prohibit any time travel by Roger and the croyel unless they were accompanied by Linden Avery. The Theomach said he had intervened and that if he had not, that the elohim would have, he tried to pass off his reason for doing it as a scorn on the elohim at first, remember guys? And as far as the elohim go, we know that they exist apart from all Law, but the Theomach is revered amongst the Insequent as the most powerful, or most distinguished of his kind. But his ability to traverse the centuries as well as "Step between moments" certainly asserts his mastery over a personal form of time travel. I am currently reserving judgement on the Insequent as a whole, because i see the potential for a seriously lame Addition to the ranks, but i also see there worth and enjoyed seeing the Theomach's involvement in the Land's greatest periods of reform, as well as the Vizard's confrontation with the Haruchai. We'll just have to see where SRD is gonna take this one. Thats all i've got, but you can check the books, its all there. Peace and Be True.
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Post by stormrider »

Wayfriend wrote: Was Linden "betrayed" by something she could not "forsee", which will "recoil" upon her?!?!

Or is she the superest awesomest person in the Land, who found a way to use the Power of Command without any negative side effects?
I don't think "show me the truth" will necessarily recoil against her, but I don't think she's the only person in the Land who could have found a way to use the PoC without bringing about destruction. Amok warns that any accomplishment may recoil upon the accomplisher and that the drinker risks self-betrayal. Linden didn't attempt anything stupid or extravagant, so she didn't sabotage herself. Elena, on the other hand, totally lost sight of reason, so she screwed everything up big time. (Poor, crazy rape-spawn. I always felt kind of sorry for Elena.)
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Post by emotional leper »

Well, Elena was 'flawed from birth.' Still hot though. A Linden/Elena threesome...

Still. Linden succeeded where Elena did not.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

burgs wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentiond this, but in WGW we were explicitly told that Foul does not want to waken the Worm or break the Arcjh of Time unless he has possession of the White Gold. Otherwise he's toast too. Presumably Roger is smart enough to know that as well.
You're absolutely right. WGW, paperback pg 28 - Findail
"The Despiser is not mad. Should he rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?
Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention to the Worm. But this statement is given and accepted as fact without (as far as I can see) reason. Foul is a "god" - if the Worm wakes up and eats the world, why is Foul's survival dependent on wild magic?
See, my point from another thread is valid here - Findail outright lied about the Guardian of the One Tree, how can we believe anything else that he said?
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Post by Xar »

First, regarding the possibility of Foul's destruction due to the Worm - not only dlb correctly asks whether we can trust everything Findail said, but even what Findail said about him could be taken both as a fact and as a question. In fact, the way it is phrased leads me to believe that the Elohim seriously underestimate Foul. In the SC, they didn't act against him because he is a "human problem" (despite the fact that he wanted to break the Arch of Time and destroy the world), and they only sent an Appointed when humans came to their lands. Even in the Last Chronicles, the Elohim seem more concerned with Kastenessen and the skurj than they are with Foul (who might well be - and is implied to be - the one who allowed Kastenessen to escape in the first place).
I have a feeling that the Elohim consider Foul not to be their equal - they believe he is weaker, less powerful than they are, more circumscribed perhaps. Maybe this is because of his imprisonment, or maybe because the Elohim being Earthpower incarnate, they cannot see Foul completely for what he truly is (that is, they see the surface but not the essence of Foul).
Wayfriend wrote:
Xar wrote:Not really - the Theomach mentions that if he had not altered Roger's time travel destination, the Elohim would have.
Okay. So the Elohim are preventing all time travel. And so the only way Roger could go back in time and get to the Blood is to take Linden. Because then the Elohim would not stop them; they would rely on Linden to. If I understand this theory correctly.

Which means that Linden is the only one allowed to travel backwards in time. At least as far as the Elohim are concerned.

I suppose Esmer must get a special dispensation for some reason. The Elohim did not stop him bringing forward the Demondim. Unless, again, they knew that Linden would take care of it.

And they didn't stop the Demondim from going backward in time to get to the Illearth Stone. Again, I suppose because Linden would deal with it.

And they didn't stop the Mahdoubt from going back in time. Because Linden yada yada yada.

So, in other words ... nobody was doing any travelling backwards in time until inden came along. Poor Linden.

This doesn't hold up somwhere. But I can't put my finger on it.
Esmer likely doesn't need dispensation and cannot be stopped - he is part Elohim, and you'd think that if the Elohim could prevent Kastenessen's legacy from being spread, they would have taken it from his lover, or from the merewives. Likely, the Elohim believe that Esmer, being part Elohim himself, cannot break the Arch of Time by himself, and therefore they do not have sufficient reasons to prevent him from traveling.

The Demondim didn't "go back in time"; they took a caesure, controlled it, and used it FROM THE PRESENT to siphon off the Illearth Stone's power. the only "time travel" involved here is that of the Illearth Stone's power from the past to the present, and that doesn't threaten the Arch because all leads us to believe that the Illearth Stone's power cannot be exhausted.

The Mahdoubt apparently has many gifts (the fact that she raised no questions in Revelstone is one of them), and she could simply have "slipped through" without the Elohim noticing; or, given that as the Harrow says, she was well-known at a time, the Elohim might know she is no threat to the Arch of Time (the same reason why they allowed the Theomach to divert Roger's destination, or trusted him to take care of the possible problems).

There is another question that just came to mind, which I find more interesting (and probably I'll ask on the GI): we are told by Roger and the Theomach that caesures cannot exist in a time when the Law of Death and the Law of Life were still undamaged; that is, caesures span time from the present to the breaking of those Laws only. In fact, if Linden created a caesure in a time when both Laws were whole, she could break the Arch herself.
Then where do the Demondim take the Illearth Stone's power from? If we assume that the breaking of the Law of Death is the limit of when caesures can go, it means they must have been siphoning it off the Stone between The Illearth War and The Power That Preserves - but I find it hard to believe Foul wouldn't have noticed, since he possessed the Stone (unless he DID notice, and it was this noticing that gave him the idea for the attack on Time in the first place...). Alternately, what Linden believes is that they siphoned off the power from a time when the Stone was still buried - but how could that be, if the caesures cannot get that far?
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Post by dlbpharmd »

If we assume that the breaking of the Law of Death is the limit of when caesures can go, it means they must have been siphoning it off the Stone between The Illearth War and The Power That Preserves - but I find it hard to believe Foul wouldn't have noticed, since he possessed the Stone (unless he DID notice, and it was this noticing that gave him the idea for the attack on Time in the first place...)
Excellent point, and this goes along with what SRD said in the WHGB for ROTE - that Foul had "other stratagems in place."
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