"Do something they won't expect"

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I've posted this to the Fatal Revenant forum because the topic encompasses all three Chronicles.

Thomas Covenant told Linden, "Do something they won't expect." But hasn't that been SRD's primary plot device in all three Chronicles, to do something his readers won't expect? --

In the first Chronicles, SRD takes a very weak character -- a rapist, a
leper, someone who can barely hang together physically -- and fashioned
events which eventually led Covenant to make the following astounding statement: "I'm going to bring Foul's Creche down around his ears." And then, this "anile, peurile" character did just that. (Of course by this time we're used to being astounded by SRD and his characters, but that's beside the point .)

In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant did something that I, at any rate, didn't expect -- he ceded his white gold ring to Lord Foul the Despiser.

So, in the Third Chronicles, Linden Avery has, ironically, been advised to do something EXPECTED, we just don't know what that is yet.

I know some of you may be thinking that the events at the end of FR were unexpected. But from the response she got from everyone, even the one who gave her the advice to begin with, I don't think that was quite what Covenant had in mind.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Well, he told her to find him.
She did.
But what was the point of him telling her to do that if TC couldn't speak to her beyond similar cryptic comments that he made to her companions already.
There was no point at all if he had follow the same logic that prevent his Dead from telling him, in the WL, all he needed to know and what to do.
So I'm thinking that TC *WANTED* her to bring him back.
But she screwed up somehow.
Like maybe he's a leper again or something.
Or she had to defeat the Harrow before doing it because now if he gets his ring the Harrow can take it from him since the Mandoubt's deal only covered Linden.
But what is also kind of strange is that it seemed to me that the Elohim expected her to do what she did.
Why else did Infelice tell her not to do it?

So......I have no idea.
Damn SRD anyway.
Damn him to hell for being so damn good at this!
It's driving me crazy!!

[Ur Dead]

And Infelice refers to TC as the Timewarden??!! Does that mean Covenant still has power over the Arch?
Are the Elohim going to be worm food?
I don't think Linden had any chooseable choice based on what everyone and creature implied. She like the rest of us need some more solid concrete clues before we can make a sound decision.

PS.. HLT you don't need to be driven crazy, but it sure helps sometimes.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Well, he told her to find him.
She did.
But what was the point of him telling her to do that if TC couldn't speak to her beyond similar cryptic comments that he made to her companions already.
There was no point at all if he had follow the same logic that prevent his Dead from telling him, in the WL, all he needed to know and what to do.
So I'm thinking that TC *WANTED* her to bring him back.
But she screwed up somehow.
Like maybe he's a leper again or something.
Or she had to defeat the Harrow before doing it because now if he gets his ring the Harrow can take it from him since the Mandoubt's deal only now covered Linden.
But what is also kind of strange is that it seemed to me that the Elohim expected her to do what she did.
Why else did Infelice tell her not to do it?

So......I have no idea.
Damn SRD anyway.
Damn him to hell for being so damn good at this!
It's driving me crazy!!

Haha.

The Elohim are all-powerful, yet psychologically limited by their narcissism. So they don't despair to the point of self-sacrifice, as did Kevin Landwaster; and of course they fear the white gold. A major thread running throughout the Chronicles has been the "power of despair."

Anyway, Linden did find him, although he didn't specify exactly what she should do after finding him.

Of course I may be wrong, in that Covenant is actually upset about something else she did

In the long run, however, I see the final chapter of FR as just adding another draught to Linden's overflowing cup of despair, her heart blackened by her son's imprisonment.

Spoiler

Furthermore, the worm is now roused, and Covenant is obviously upset with her, not the happy reunion she might have expected.

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but

Spoiler

hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

[Ur Dead]

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but

Spoiler

hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

I don't think so.. Remember Hollian??

[iQuestor]

I wonder if the arch is now vulnerable since TC is now again Mortal?

Do something they wont expect, Linden....

Spoiler

try being useful for a friggin change!

[lurch]

Concerning,," do something they don't expect": To me,, that repeated refrain, is an invitation to explore the imagination. Seek and hopefully find or create in ones imagination a " newness"..the unexpected. The exaggerated polarized existence of the characters and the Land, vs all the evil doing, is plain to see. How these characters come about to the " unexpected"..or rise above ..or create " newness" from the conflicted polar opposites,,is The Surreal Formula,, is the the Surreal of SRD...

The basic Surreal Formula,, as put forth by the original Surrealists,, is,, Reject the reality around you for Truth,, reject the Inner reality of oneself( the subconscious, memories ) for Truth, yet force the Two realities together and from their examined interchange, rise into the Surreal ( ones Imagination) to create a Reality above the polarized. If that reality or solution created sticks with you,, then it is ones Truth,,Hence SRD's repeated refrain,, Be True to Yourself....Yes the reality around you is real,, but its too subjective to hold personal Truth. Yes the subconscious and memories etc are real.. but again, its too subjective to hold personal Truth. What is Illusion and what is Real is constantly played by SRD in the TCoTC, aye?

Linden is on a self discovery journey,, answering the big Surreal Question..." Who Am I".. her personal Truth. As with TC, she will find it in what she discovers and creates in her Imagination...Do something they don't expect.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but

Spoiler

hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

I don't think so.. Remember Hollian??

I do now, thanks.

[earthbrah]

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but

Spoiler

hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

You know, I wondered about that too. We've heard about the breaking of the Law of Death by Elena, but apparently it was only damaged? Doesn't FR mention that somewhere? Either way, it occurs to me that a new Law or something has been forged by what Linden did. Remember, her Staff had been given runes by Caerroil Wildwood. FR states, pg. 588: Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her Staff. They were for this. The Forestal of Garroting Deep had engraved the ebony wood with his knowledge of Life and Death. Indirectly he had given her a supernal relationship with Law. For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other...Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos.

Now, wait a dang minute. These two powers are supposed to be antithetical to one another, so how the hell is this even possible? What exactly HAS Linden done?
She seems to have melded chaos and structure into something new, just like she melded pure structure and pure fluidity to create the Staff. She seems to be fated to create new entities by forging together opposites. At least, she's managed to accomplish this twice now.

I'll bet that the Laws of Life and Death are no longer important. Their necessity has been shattered by what Linden has done. And what implications does this have for TC? His resurrection was brought about by her focusing wild magic and Earthpower (the essence of Law) via the krill. (Incidentally, I am now guessing that the knowledge Loric must have had to create such a weapon was given him by one of the Insequent, probably the Theomach.) Because of this, is TC now a being of concentrated Earthpower AND wild magic? structure AND potential chaos? What does this mean for what he is capable of doing now? He's the keystone of the Arch AND the Earth?

DUDE, what the hell?!?!?!?!?!?!

[stormrider]

Do something they wont expect, Linden....

Spoiler

try being useful for a friggin change!

Either way, it occurs to me that a new Law or something has been forged by what Linden did.

Oh, I'm glad you brought this up. Immediately after it happened, I was thinking the same thing -- but then I forgot about it in the midst of all my other questions and theories. What Linden did was so extreme, and I think it would be interesting if, instead of merely breaking a law, she unintentionally fashioned another. Or maybe she did both. (I need to go back and reread and write some things down as I go, but I don't know where I'll find the time.)

DUDE, what the hell?!?!?!?!?!?!

My thoughts exactly.

[earthbrah]

stormrider wrote:

I think it would be interesting if, instead of merely breaking a law, she unintentionally fashioned another. Or maybe she did both.

Assuming she did break a law, which one would it be? Some law we've not heard of yet? What about the Law of Time? Could that have been affected by her extreme action?

My mind is swirling and I can't think straight about this right now.

[lurch]

My mind is swirling and I can't think straight about this right now. [/quote]


may i suggest..that you Are experiencing the Surreal..slitely dizzy?..as if on the precipice of discovery? The key here,, is to let it happen.. Do not try to think straight,,matter of fact..do not think at all...just let it happen..Don't be in a hurry, don't try to force anything ...just let it happen..Discovery will come to you as you approach it free of all demands. Seems to me you are perceiving The Surreal of Donaldson. I believe it is intended and a major element of his Art.

[earthbrah]

Yeah man, nice advice. I tell ya, since moving to and living in Uzbekistan, so much of my world seems to be swirling in a host of unpredictability and uncertainty. BUT, I've already arrived at new perspectives despite or because of the chaos, so in that sense the surreal is producing useful things in my real life.

It's just interesting that Donaldson drops a heap of more swirlingness on top of my head in this place. Gotta love him!

[lurch]

Ah Yes,,the Surreal of a foreign country,,where they don't even Think the same way Western man thinks..OutStanding! May the experience open the unlimited potentials within you.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but

Spoiler

hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

You know, I wondered about that too. We've heard about the breaking of the Law of Death by Elena, but apparently it was only damaged? Doesn't FR mention that somewhere? Either way, it occurs to me that a new Law or something has been forged by what Linden did. Remember, her Staff had been given runes by Caerroil Wildwood. FR states, pg. 588: Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her Staff. They were for this. The Forestal of Garroting Deep had engraved the ebony wood with his knowledge of Life and Death. Indirectly he had given her a supernal relationship with Law. For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other...Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos.

Now, wait a dang minute. These two powers are supposed to be antithetical to one another, so how the hell is this even possible?

This was made possible by the runes on the Staff.

What exactly HAS Linden done?
She seems to have melded chaos and structure into something new, just like she melded pure structure and pure fluidity to create the Staff. She seems to be fated to create new entities by forging together opposites. At least, she's managed to accomplish this twice now.

I'll bet that the Laws of Life and Death are no longer important. Their necessity has been shattered by what Linden has done. And what implications does this have for TC? His resurrection was brought about by her focusing wild magic and Earthpower (the essence of Law) via the krill. (Incidentally, I am now guessing that the knowledge Loric must have had to create such a weapon was given him by one of the Insequent, probably the Theomach.) Because of this, is TC now a being of concentrated Earthpower AND wild magic? structure AND potential chaos? What does this mean for what he is capable of doing now? He's the keystone of the Arch AND the Earth?

DUDE, what the hell?!?!?!?!?!?!

The Laws of Life and Death had already been shattered. The Law of Life prevented the dead from communicating with the living. The Law of Death meant that death was a permanent stricture upon the living.

I predict that Linden will offer TC's ring back to him but he won't be able
to take it, or he'll be unwilling to. Alive, I don't think TC will be worth anything, but will turn out to be completely powerless. Anele holds the
key to unraveling these threads of plot, not TC. Anele advised Linden to find the oldest rock, not to find TC. And with TC alive, who is there to stand as the keystone guarding the AoT? Linden Avery's very existence
in the Land is, indeed, conducive to ALL of LF's ends, just as LF stated.

Furthermore, throughout these books I've found that Linden's solutions have been based on some very unimaginative thinking on her part. Her reasoning is so blinded by the emotional distress caused by the need to rescue her son. She is intensely focused on that one goal, while at least knowing she is unworthy and incapable of attaining it. You've got to give her that much credit for brains. But calling back TC was the most ineffectual idea of all. She risked rousing the Worm for a fruitless endeavor: TC is not the last hope of the Land, the Timewarden should have stayed right where he was.

Everybody knows that Linden Avery is ineffectual as a heroine. This fact has been mentioned many times on this forum. Even Linden is aware of her own ineffectuality, and so I believe that this was a SRD plot device. Thus the resurrection of TC -- the only character with enough juevos to defeat LF twice -- was inevitable, but a damnable mistake on her part.

It is not so unusual for SRD to create heroes and heroines to be completely not up to the task. (Thus the term "anti-hero.") Those TC admirers who profess to hate LA: what did they think of TC in the very beginning of LFB? He was nothing more than a whiny rapist, what was there to like anyway?

It appears that their opinion of TC has turned 180 degrees since that time.
And I doubt the sincerity of anybody who claims to have liked TC from the very beginning.

[Jeroth]

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but

Spoiler

hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

[/quote]


Actually, yes...i think the law of Time has been broken by resurrecting covenant. It was already breaking before...but now I think it is broken.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And -- I'm not sure about this -- but hasn't yet another Law been broken by Linden's act?

Actually, yes...i think the law of Time has been broken by resurrecting covenant. It was already breaking before...but now I think it is broken.

Is there a Law of Time? What is the difference between a Law and an Arch?

[earthbrah]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Is there a Law of Time? What is the difference between a Law and an Arch?

I do seem to remember there being this Law, remember it being talked about at some point. Possibly in Runes? Whatever, it stands to reason even if it wasn't talked about.

The Law of Time would require that events happen in a sequential manner, that one thing follows another in the proper order. If so, then it's already been weakened by the caesures of Joan's madness, and maybe by Roger and Jeremiah/croyel traveling around time, maybe even by the Insequent, like the Theomach and the Mahdoubt. Be that as it may,

I don't know if this Law was broken or not by what Linden did. The better question is the one about the difference between the Law and the Arch. See, a Law is based on structure, but the Arch is not. The Arch has white wild magic gold as its foundation, an element that represents chaos in this universe. And Linden was enabled to wield both the power of Law and chaos by way of the krill, something which should not have even been possible. Remember, the book says that "For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other...Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos. If the very power she wielded in that moment was based on this fact, that neither was falsified or cancelled by the other, then it seems to me that she has fundamentally altered the very nature of what we consider to be Law. Maybe she hasn't made a new Law, or broken an old one, but rather recreated the essence or meaning of Law itself. This power was said to allow Linden to remake reality as she deemed fit. So she has done. It's just that we don't know what that means yet, what implications that has.

HAIL SRD!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Is there a Law of Time? What is the difference between a Law and an Arch?

I do seem to remember there being this Law, remember it being talked about at some point. Possibly in Runes? Whatever, it stands to reason even if it wasn't talked about.

The Law of Time would require that events happen in a sequential manner, that one thing follows another in the proper order. If so, then it's already been weakened by the caesures of Joan's madness, and maybe by Roger and Jeremiah/croyel traveling around time, maybe even by the Insequent, like the Theomach and the Mahdoubt. Be that as it may,

I don't know if this Law was broken or not by what Linden did. The better question is the one about the difference between the Law and the Arch. See, a Law is based on structure, but the Arch is not. The Arch has white wild magic gold as its foundation, an element that represents chaos in this universe. And Linden was enabled to wield both the power of Law and chaos by way of the krill, something which should not have even been possible.

The Krill only served as a focusing point for power, like a magnifying glass in sunlight, to make up for Linden's inadequacy, focusing the desire of her will and magic to an almost infinite intensity.

Remember, the book says that "For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other...Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos. If the very power she wielded in that moment was based on this fact, that neither was falsified or cancelled by the other, then it seems to me that she has fundamentally altered the very nature of what we consider to be Law. Maybe she hasn't made a new Law, or broken an old one, but rather recreated the essence or meaning of Law itself. This power was said to allow Linden to remake reality as she deemed fit. So she has done. It's just that we don't know what that means yet, what implications that has.

HAIL SRD!

And yet, according to the legend of white gold, there is wild magic graven in every rock, contained for white gold to unleash or control.

To unleash or control.

I gleaned from your analysis that there is more circularity embedded in the entire plot-structure of the series, and not just the latest book. This circularity involves the time-sequence of the entire history of the earth. Where did wild magic come from in the first place? Why is there wild magic graven in every rock? And how did it come to serve as the foundation for the AoT?

I suspect that the answer to the very beginning of things will be found at the very end, thus the circularity of the novels, the history of the Land, which has already been hinted at by LA's time-traveling adventure to the age of Berek Halfhand. Her very presence there should have been enough to unravel time, which indicates that it was already a historical fact, although unknown.

I surmise that the Earth itself, along with the Arch which imprisons Foul, must be the product of the exertions of some Creator, standing outside of Time and Law, wielding white gold. And thus, standing outside of Time, the Earth is capable of being renewed, the clock of history started up again from out of the Last Dark.

One of the major themes of these novels has been "submission." Covenant's final victory over LF was acquired through submission. I predict that this will be the case once again.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Is there a Law of Time? What is the difference between a Law and an Arch?

I do seem to remember there being this Law, remember it being talked about at some point. Possibly in Runes? Whatever, it stands to reason even if it wasn't talked about.

The Law of Time would require that events happen in a sequential manner, that one thing follows another in the proper order. If so, then it's already been weakened by the caesures of Joan's madness, and maybe by Roger and Jeremiah/croyel traveling around time, maybe even by the Insequent, like the Theomach and the Mahdoubt. Be that as it may,

I don't know if this Law was broken or not by what Linden did. The better question is the one about the difference between the Law and the Arch. See, a Law is based on structure, but the Arch is not. The Arch has white wild magic gold as its foundation, an element that represents chaos in this universe. And Linden was enabled to wield both the power of Law and chaos by way of the krill, something which should not have even been possible. Remember, the book says that "For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other...Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos. If the very power she wielded in that moment was based on this fact, that neither was falsified or cancelled by the other, then it seems to me that she has fundamentally altered the very nature of what we consider to be Law. Maybe she hasn't made a new Law, or broken an old one, but rather recreated the essence or meaning of Law itself. This power was said to allow Linden to remake reality as she deemed fit. So she has done. It's just that we don't know what that means yet, what implications that has.

HAIL SRD!

The legend of wild magic has some good, although somewhat obscure, information about this:

There is wild magic graven in every rock,
contained for white gold to unleash or control—
gold, rare metal, not born of the Land,
nor ruled, limited, subdued
by the Law with which the Land was created
(for the Land is beautiful
as if it were a strong soul’s dream of peace and harmony,
and Beauty is not possible without discipline—
and the Law which gave birth to Time
is the Land’s Creator’s self-control)—
but keystone rather, pivot, crux
for the anarchy out of which Time was made,
and with Time Earth,
and with Earth those who people it:
wild magic restrained in every particle of life,
and unleashed or controlled by gold
(not born of the Land)
because that power is the anchor of the arch of life
that spans and masters Time
and white—white gold
not ebon, ichor, incarnadine, viridian—
because white is the hue of bone:
structure of flesh,
discipline of life.

This power is a paradox,
because Power does not exist without Law,
and wild magic has no Law;
and white gold is a paradox,
because it speaks for the bone of life,
but has no part of the Land.
And he who wields white wild magic gold
is a paradox—
for he is everything and nothing,
hero and fool,
potent, helpless—
and with the one word of truth or treachery
he will save or damn the Earth
because he is mad and sane,
cold and passionate,
lost and found.