The Sangorgons

[Aleksandr]

I'm quite happy to have the Sandgorgons back (though a bit worried about their future actions in the Land), but I find myself wondering now why they showed up. First off, wasn't the Doom unmade? I thought the compulsion to answer their names was part of it, put there by Kasreyn. Shouldn't it be over? Also, why did they all come? Only Nom should have showed up. If he's still alive, of course. SRD has indicated in the GI that Sandgorgons shouldn't be thought of as immortal.

And maybe this will be GI question when he's ready to start answering Fatal Revenant questions.

[emotional leper]

I thought that the Sandgorgons were answering the call to Nom, not because they had to, but to repay the debt they owed on Nom's behalf for the gift of intelligence.

[Damelon]

The sandgorgons were freed from the Doom by Nom, who learned how from the shreds of samadhi.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I thought that the Sandgorgons were answering the call to Nom, not because they had to, but to repay the debt they owed on Nom's behalf for the gift of intelligence.

[earthbrah]

I will quote FR here to try to clarify this issue a bit.

Firstly, at the end of pg. 433, the narration tells about how Covenant mastered Nom. It describes Nom killing samadhi/Honninscrave, and then "somehow" consuming the rent bits of the raver's existence. From this little snack, Nom apparently acquired the ability to communicate like the Haruchai, mind to mind. Then Stave relays some information to Linden through this mental communication...

pg. 434: I am informed that Nom returned to the Great Desert and Sandgorgon's Doom bearing the rent fragments of samadhi Sheol's spirit. These had been forever torn from coherence, but they were not deprived of intention and malice. Nom distributed them among the Sandgorgons, giving to his kind faint remnants of the Raver's memories and lore and cruelty. Thus in small tatters the brutish minds of the Sandgorgons acquired knowledge.

Across a great span of years, they learned to unmake the Doom in which Kasreyn of the Gyre had imprisoned them. And across a far greater span, they discovered purpose. A host of them, all those who share samadhi Sheol's spirit, have now come to the Land. For that reason, they were able to answer your call without delay.

Of their host, these are but a few. The rest await the outcome of your summons.

Then Stave goes on to tell Linden that the Sandgorgon's wanted acknowledgement that Linden's desire of them had been fulfilled. Since so much was happening, she just agrees--something she later regrets.


Now, some questions: First of all, what is the purpose that the Sandgorgons discovered? What do they want? How much of this intent is based in Sheol's malice and hatred? And now that Covenant is restored to life, will the Sandgorgons answer to him? Will he have a need to call upon their service?

And how did Nom manage to consume the pieces of samadhi's spirit? What is this power (if it be a power), and how will it play itself out before the end? Will the Sandgorgons be turned on the other ravers to eat their spirits too?

And how does Longwrath's sword play into this? It was made by Kasreyn as a means to fight Sandgorgons. And on pg. 553, it states: If his weapon had been formed with theurgy as well as fire, however, the effects were no longer perceptible. They had been attenuated by too much time--or they had been designed for circumstances which no longer existed. Maybe those circumstances will once again exist, whatever they are?

It occurs to me that the Sandgorgons are more important than we realize to the conclusion of this saga. Nice work opening up the dialogue on this one, Aleksandr.

[iQuestor]

earthbrah said :

First of all, what is the purpose that the Sandgorgons discovered? What do they want? How much of this intent is based in Sheol's malice and hatred? And now that Covenant is restored to life, will the Sandgorgons answer to him? Will he have a need to call upon their service?

In FR it says they wanted to establish their own kingdom ; samadhi's essence and shown them visions of grandeur (suzerainity) and I think the host of other sandgorgons is in Doriender Corashev. IIRC thats the old capitol city where Hile Troy was blinded, and near the border of the great forest where the Ravers terrorized the trees.

I agree, I think the sandgorgons are going to figure heavily in the next book, I think Linden did agree to quickly.

[earthbrah]

In FR it says they wanted to establish their own kingdom ; samadhi's essence and shown them visions of grandeur (suzerainity) and I think the host of other sandgorgons is in Doriender Corashev.

You're right, I read that when I was searching for the quotes I used. But you're misremembering about Hile Troy being blinded. He was blind in our world before he ever came to the Land. Remember, the main reason he loved the Land so much was because he was able to see somehow with the help of Earthpower. I recall a scene when he was on Kevin's Watch scouting the Despiser's army. Only he had vision enough to see at such distances, or something like that. Hile Troy never led the lord's army all the way to Doriendor Korishev. They only made it to Doom's Retreat, IIRC.

[Seven Words]

Earthbrah:

They went from Doom's Retreat to Doriendor Corishev. It was at Doriendor Corishev that Moksha Fleshharrower summoned the Vortex of Trepidation. Hile Troy used a sword to behead one of the flying creatures of the vortex, it's acidic blood gushed across his face, and blinded his health-sense. I believe mention was made that hurtloam or rillinlure would probably have healed his sight, had there been any left. From Doriendor Corishev, they fled to Garrotting Deep, where Troy made the deal with Caerroil Wildwood to save what was left of the Warward.

[earthbrah]

Dang, thanks Seven Words. Clearly it's been waaaaay too long since I read TIW. Must be time to go back and reread...

[iQuestor]

In FR it says they wanted to establish their own kingdom ; samadhi's essence and shown them visions of grandeur (suzerainity) and I think the host of other sandgorgons is in Doriender Corashev.

You're right, I read that when I was searching for the quotes I used. But you're misremembering about Hile Troy being blinded. He was blind in our world before he ever came to the Land. Remember, the main reason he loved the Land so much was because he was able to see somehow with the help of Earthpower. I recall a scene when he was on Kevin's Watch scouting the Despiser's army. Only he had vision enough to see at such distances, or something like that. Hile Troy never led the lord's army all the way to Doriendor Korishev. They only made it to Doom's Retreat, IIRC.

Actually, no: I know Hile was blind in his RL, but earthpower allowed him to see in the Land. However, Hile was re-blinded in the battle at Doriender Corashev when he was taking his army into doom's retreat. If you remember, it was a ruse to make FleshHarrower's army think they were taking a stand there to buy time. He wasnted to piss off FleshHarrower so bad that he wouldnt think straight when the time came to lead his army into Garroting Deep. However, Troy was isolated after the Vortex of Trepidation was unleashed, which made them all afraid. He was blinded and surrounded by some birds who were playing with him. He was rescued by first Haft Amorine.

In the Illearth War, The ruins of the Southron Wastes , was written:

"Warmark," Amorine said. What has happened to you?"
"Sun," He panted. "Is - the sun - shining?" The effort of articulation seemed to impale his heart.
"Warmark? Ah. Warmark! What has been done to you? "
"The sun!" He retched out. He was desparate to insist, but he could only stamp his foot uselessly.
"The sun stands overhead." Mhoram Answered.

[ edit] sevenwords, thanks. We were posting at the same time. TIW is my favorite book!

Now, does anyone see the parallel here between Hile Troy being blinded, and the blinding of Manethrall Mahrtiir in Fatal Revenant, An Aftertaste of Victory?

[earthbrah]

Gawd, I really need to reread TIW!

And I love the connection you found, iQuestor, between Mahrtiir and Hile Troy. Nice catch! A foreboding for the Manethrall...?

[iQuestor]

And I love the connection you found, iQuestor, between Mahrtiir and Hile Troy. Nice catch! A foreboding for the Manethrall...?

I caught it when I was looking up the reference to Hile being blinded. I think i may start a thread asking about this. Hile was born with out eyes, just had sockets. Martiir's eyes were burned from his sockets. Both were basically fulfilling similar roles: Hile was Warmark, Marthiir was manethrall.

[Aleksandr]

Hmm. I didn't notice the part about the Sandgorgons already being in the Land when Linden called them. Presumably they came rather recently since the Giants tell of them leaving the Desert while they (the Giants) were in Bhrathairain with Longwrath, and hence they followed them to the Land. So I wonder what summoned them? Did they, like Ranyhyn, hear Linden's summons across time? Or was there something else involved?

[iQuestor]

Hmm. I didn't notice the part about the Sandgorgons already being in the Land when Linden called them. Presumably they came rather recently since the Giants tell of them leaving the Desert while they (the Giants) were in Bhrathairain with Longwrath, and hence they followed them to the Land. So I wonder what summoned them? Did they, like Ranyhyn, hear Linden's summons across time? Or was there something else involved?

The answer is between their tale, and GaleWrath's. They escaped the doom, and then later, breached the Wall and strode into the sea, presumable making straight for the Land. Their motivation was the shredded essence of Samadhi Raver, which (through its memories) had shown the they could rule themselves, and gain their own suzerainity. I think it actually pointed them to the Southron Wastes, at Doriender Corashev. Therefore, They werent summoned. The scraps gave them their own 'Quality of Mind' for which now they repaid Linden by answering her summons. They now have some intelligence and are free to act as they will. I think they ultimately will be corrupted entirely be a foe of some great might for Linden and TC... We havent seen the last of them.

As for Galewrath, I wonder if the departing Sandgorgons somehow activated the sword he carries, since it was built to slay them. Possibly its drawing him to the land as well as his Earthsight.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Gawd, I really need to reread TIW!

And I love the connection you found, iQuestor, between Mahrtiir and Hile Troy. Nice catch! A foreboding for the Manethrall...?

An easy catch.

There are parallels to the previous Chronicles all over the Last, from the very beginning on Kevin's Watch, with Linden standing where Covenant once stood...

Sometimes I feel like the whole thing has become rather formulaic.

[Seppi2112]

I'm hoping that the sandgorgons are SRD's way of dealing with the ravers and not yet another enemy to face.

[earthbrah]

iQuestor wrote:

As for Galewrath, I wonder if the departing Sandgorgons somehow activated the sword he carries, since it was built to slay them. Possibly its drawing him to the land as well as his Earthsight.

Who is Galewrath? Do you mean Longwrath? Anyway, I'd love to see that mangled giant have a go at a Sandgorgon. See what that sword's really made of, see just how long this dude's wrath truly extends...

[iQuestor]

iQuestor wrote:

As for Galewrath, I wonder if the departing Sandgorgons somehow activated the sword he carries, since it was built to slay them. Possibly its drawing him to the land as well as his Earthsight.

Who is Galewrath? Do you mean Longwrath? Anyway, I'd love to see that mangled giant have a go at a Sandgorgon. See what that sword's really made of, see just how long this dude's wrath truly extends...

oops. I meant longwrath. Galewrath is a good name, though! I like it!

[Borillar]

Wasn't Galewrath one of the Giants of the Search?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Then Stave goes on to tell Linden that the Sandgorgon's wanted acknowledgement that Linden's desire of them had been fulfilled. Since so much was happening, she just agrees--something she later regrets.

Sigh. I think it's time to start asking this question: WWTD? (What would Thomas do?)