"Do something they won't expect"

Book 2 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Is there a Law of Time? What is the difference between a Law and an Arch?


I do seem to remember there being this Law, remember it being talked about at some point. Possibly in Runes? Whatever, it stands to reason even if it wasn't talked about.

The Law of Time would require that events happen in a sequential manner, that one thing follows another in the proper order. If so, then it's already been weakened by the caesures of Joan's madness, and maybe by Roger and Jeremiah/croyel traveling around time, maybe even by the Insequent, like the Theomach and the Mahdoubt. Be that as it may,

I don't know if this Law was broken or not by what Linden did. The better question is the one about the difference between the Law and the Arch. See, a Law is based on structure, but the Arch is not. The Arch has white wild magic gold as its foundation, an element that represents chaos in this universe. And Linden was enabled to wield both the power of Law and chaos by way of the krill, something which should not have even been possible. Remember, the book says that "For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other...Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos. If the very power she wielded in that moment was based on this fact, that neither was falsified or cancelled by the other, then it seems to me that she has fundamentally altered the very nature of what we consider to be Law. Maybe she hasn't made a new Law, or broken an old one, but rather recreated the essence or meaning of Law itself. This power was said to allow Linden to remake reality as she deemed fit. So she has done. It's just that we don't know what that means yet, what implications that has.

HAIL SRD! 8)


I just found this answer from SRD on the GI forum at SRD's website:
"After all, the *Staff* didn't break the Law of Death. Naturally there's some ambiguity as to whether or not the Staff *can* repair the damage."
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Post by wayfriend »

Which reminds me of another thing that SRD said in the GI. He doesn't believe in things being "undone" in his stories.
In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Question: In the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, once the Laws of the Land are broken, can they be mended?
  • Life is process. The word "mended" sort of implies "returned to its original state". About that I'm skeptical. Everything has moved on. And the whole notion of "mending"--or even "healing"--broken Laws troubles me: it could so easily have the unintended effect of diminishing the significance of the earlier stories. "Well, the Land was in trouble, but now everything is fine. No problem. Ergo: no reason to read the previous books. Or even this one." The past made us who we are. I like to think that I can find a better solution to the dilemma.

    (08/30/2006)
So things don't return to what they were. However, new things can grow which replace the old things.

So I think it's possible that Linden created a new Law when she resurrected Covenant. But she would not have repaired the broken Laws of Life and Death.

One thing I am sure about: none of us can yet guess what "Oh Linden what have you done?" actually means.

One clue we have is the continual re-iteration throughout the books that Linden somehow screwed up everyone when she created the New Staff of Law. (Like it was her idea.) That by reinforcing the Law, no one can easily do what they need to do any more. Well, in once sense, that's a red herring, in that Law is important, too bad it makes things difficult, it makes things difficult for those who are out to do bad things, too. But in another sense, it does point to the idea that Law *could* be bad. If it prevents the wrong sorts of things.

It may be that Linden has somehow closed the path between Life and Death in a new way. Prevented the living from becoming Dead, for example. Boundaries are always two-way streets.

This could cause serious problems for someone like TC. He just became mortal. Caer Caveral did a lot of work to ensure that TC could do what he needs to do while dead. But now, if he dies ... there's no more chance of being Timewarden of the Dead. There's just nothing.

It may even be that Covenant's death could destroy the Arch. The Arch may have become mortal, tied to an earthly revenant whose death would be fatal for everyone.

That's certainly one hyothetical case. Which gives a whole new import to "What have you done?".
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Post by earthbrah »

Dang, Worm, that's quite a flurry of responses! Nice.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Why is there wild magic graven in every rock?
I'll bet Anele can answer that question. Or rather, Anele can read the answer in the very rock of the Earth...
I suspect that the answer to the very beginning of things will be found at the very end, thus the circularity of the novels, the history of the Land, which has already been hinted at by LA's time-traveling adventure to the age of Berek Halfhand. Her very presence there should have been enough to unravel time, which indicates that it was already a historical fact, although unknown.
Yeah, I had the same thought about Linden's presence in the past. It would definitely hold water to say that her ability go back there was already part of the script of Time, which is why her very presence with Berek didn't shatter everything.

And preesh the quotes about wild magic, Worm (you don't mind if I just call you Worm, do you?). Not having the texts with me here in Tashkent, it's nice to have folks like yourself out there to provide for those of us in need.

Hail, Worm! :biggrin:
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Post by earthbrah »

Wayfriend wrote:
The Arch may have become mortal, tied to an earthly revenant whose death would be fatal for everyone.
Yeah, something like that is kinda what I see. Linden used the krill to focus both powers, Law and wild magic. In that moment, the two commingled. It would stand to reason that the product of that commingling would contain some of the same interblending, that TC is now a conduit for both Earthpower/Law and wild magic.

Purity is another theme that has been woven throughout the Chronicles. Foamfollower believed that purity of service lies in he who serves; the Haruchai believed that purity of service lies in that which is served. We know that white gold is impure by nature, it being an alloy. But Kasreyn's take (damn, I can't find it in the text right now--I know it's in FR somewhere...) was that white gold IS pure, despite it being an alloy. Therein lies the paradox of the substance. Kasreyn spoke of having to implant an imperfection into each of his works, but with white gold he could create pure works and not worry about it. (Someone help me find this section of the text!) I have recently submitted a question to SRD concerning this issue of purity. But I gather he's rather busy of late with his book tour, so I must patiently wait his response.

But back to the Law/wildmagic/Linden/TCresurrected thing...Could it be that the purity of white gold is now in question? Is there no more hope in contradiction? :(
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Post by stormrider »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: It appears that their opinion of TC has turned 180 degrees since that time.
And I doubt the sincerity of anybody who claims to have liked TC from the very beginning.
I sincerely liked Covenant from the beginning. He was a leper, and I felt bad for him. If I had leprosy, I bet I'd be pretty whiney, too. And raping Lena was an awful thing to do, but he did think he was dreaming -- and he had been impotent. He was overwhelmed. He frustrated the hell out of me at times, but I always liked him.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

So did I, stormrider.
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Post by wayfriend »

... because he had qualities that I saw in myself (unfortunately).
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Post by wayfriend »

earthbrah wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Why is there wild magic graven in every rock?
I'll bet Anele can answer that question. Or rather, Anele can read the answer in the very rock of the Earth...
Wild magic is "graven in every rock" because it is the keystone of the Arch. If you take the Arch as a metaphor for (among other things) the fundamental principles upon which existence depends, then wild magic is the force that makes these principles work (or the force which can destroy them). So it makes sense that you would find these principles in "every rock", and everything else for that matter.
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Post by Truth or treachery »

I have been slowly coming to the conclusion that SRD intends to link the past with the present and completely change the legends that we've just assumed were the whole truth. In interviews I have read he always describes these new chronicles as his largest and most challenging task. He says it will require him to take his writing further than he ever has and that he has been daunted by that. Maybe tieing all the legends and myths from the previous books in with the plot and conclusion of these new books falls into that category.
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Post by Seven Words »

I posted this in the TC last words thread, but i think it ties in....

I think maybe Linden got it wrong with her interpretation of find me. I think he meant his physical remains (i went into this in detail in that thread, not going to rehash it), but i suggested that his remains are somewhere important (the Haruchai took them after they became Masters, going beyond Guards Gap will reveal something nifty, the Giants took them to Home, there's something there necessary, etc. ,etc.). By leaving the Land (Guards Gap or Home) that WOULD be very unexpected.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

earthbrah wrote:Dang, Worm, that's quite a flurry of responses! Nice.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Why is there wild magic graven in every rock?
I'll bet Anele can answer that question. Or rather, Anele can read the answer in the very rock of the Earth...
I suspect that the answer to the very beginning of things will be found at the very end, thus the circularity of the novels, the history of the Land, which has already been hinted at by LA's time-traveling adventure to the age of Berek Halfhand. Her very presence there should have been enough to unravel time, which indicates that it was already a historical fact, although unknown.
Yeah, I had the same thought about Linden's presence in the past. It would definitely hold water to say that her ability go back there was already part of the script of Time, which is why her very presence with Berek didn't shatter everything.

And preesh the quotes about wild magic, Worm (you don't mind if I just call you Worm, do you?). Not having the texts with me here in Tashkent, it's nice to have folks like yourself out there to provide for those of us in need.

Hail, Worm! :biggrin:
As long as I'm not confused with bad ol' Drool Rockworm.

I don't have the texts on hand either, I had to Google for the quote. And in fact that's far easier than flipping through hundreds of pages of a book, but it's limited to whatever text is posted out there on the net. 8O

The question of what SRD means by an Arch of Time remains a mystery. Originally, according to the legend of white gold, it was "the Arch of Life which spans and masters Time." Thus there was an "Arch of Life" and presumably a "Law of Time." The Arch of Life apparently "masters" Time, but in what way SRD never explains. And soon anyway these two features of the Land (or Laws transcending the Land, as it were) were melded by SRD into one concept: the Arch of Time. :P

This is one of SRD's many inconsistencies, however this one does tend to simplify matters and so these inherent Laws become easier to understand.

The Land is largely a group of metaphors, these metaphors taking on "dream reality" and becoming its invisible structure.

Going beyond the text here:
Time itself is the Law which governs to Sequence as one corollary, but let's not forget Simultaneity as it is actually a two-pronged Law. Sequence governs to the Law of Causality (one-to-one relationships), Simultaneity governs to the Law of Reciprocity (relationships forming a matrix of causal events occurring at the same time, forming what we call Nature).

The Arch of Time is a metaphor for the Order of Nature. Lord Foul is an unnatural, or supernatural, being trapped in a natural order of things, a prison from which he cannot escape.

Sounds rather unpleasant, which might explain his capacity for evil, although the legend of the Creator suggests that LF was not a good spirit to begin with. This is why, in a sudden (and human-seeming) burst of outrage which He soon regretted, the Creator cast Foul down to the Land in the first place, and then created the Arch to keep him there. Thus the laws of nature were created simultaneously with the appearance of Lord Foul. And so without Foul, indirectly as it were, there wouldn't be any Land as we know it.

In the "real" world, the laws of nature have no inherent reality, they are simply ways in which we come to understand the world. But since the Land only exists in someone's dream, these Laws become the metaphorical structure of the dream, holding the dream together, not physical yet actual, active, living elements of the Land. The Land is, literally, a living thing, as living as the mind that dreamt it up, but not living as a person or animal or tree is alive. A mind, after all, is not a corporeal thing, but it is a living, purpose-driven activity governed by definite subconscious, psychological rules.

Wild magic, however, is not an actuality, it is merely a potentiality -- a creative potential, a seemingly lawless spontaneity that springs from the subconscious, that creativity responsible for creating dreams -- or novels. Consider the fact that, since you made up the dream from your subconscious, you are also capable of breaking any "laws" which fashion the dream and make it cohere. The difficulty involves being able to tap into that well-spring of creativity as a means, and then being able to channel it into some kind of productive end (such as a painting or a novel).

Consciousness, as a rule-governed activity, is governed universally to us all, so the Land is a manifestation of a universal subconscious. Thus, as long as there are humans in the "real" world, the Land cannot die. It may change its forms, but the substance, the unconscious metaphor, remains. In terms of the Land, the Arch cannot be destroyed by someone within the Land, not even Foul, but only by someone from outside, such as Linden or Covenant. Only the dreamer can do away with the source of dreams, and Foul is only one element of a dream. And Foul, as a metaphor for evil, cannot be destroyed as long as the Land exists.

Sometimes dreams can manifest in the form of hallucinations, which is how the Creator appeared to Covenant and Linden. Remember that, for Linden, the crazy old beggar whom she saved literally appeared to vanish before her eyes as he walked off into the distance.


;)
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

stormrider wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: It appears that their opinion of TC has turned 180 degrees since that time.
And I doubt the sincerity of anybody who claims to have liked TC from the very beginning.
I sincerely liked Covenant from the beginning. He was a leper, and I felt bad for him. If I had leprosy, I bet I'd be pretty whiney, too. And raping Lena was an awful thing to do, but he did think he was dreaming -- and he had been impotent. He was overwhelmed. He frustrated the hell out of me at times, but I always liked him.
Hmmm, well, you weren't supposed to.
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Re: an invitation..

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

lurch wrote:Concerning,," do something they don't expect": To me,, that repeated refrain, is an invitation to explore the imagination. Seek and hopefully find or create in ones imagination a " newness"..the unexpected. The exaggerated polarized existence of the characters and the Land, vs all the evil doing, is plain to see. How these characters come about to the " unexpected"..or rise above ..or create " newness" from the conflicted polar opposites,,is The Surreal Formula,, is the the Surreal of SRD...

The basic Surreal Formula,, as put forth by the original Surrealists,, is,, Reject the reality around you for Truth,, reject the Inner reality of oneself( the subconscious, memories ) for Truth, yet force the Two realities together and from their examined interchange, rise into the Surreal ( ones Imagination) to create a Reality above the polarized. If that reality or solution created sticks with you,, then it is ones Truth,,Hence SRD's repeated refrain,, Be True to Yourself....Yes the reality around you is real,, but its too subjective to hold personal Truth. Yes the subconscious and memories etc are real.. but again, its too subjective to hold personal Truth. What is Illusion and what is Real is constantly played by SRD in the TCoTC, aye?

Linden is on a self discovery journey,, answering the big Surreal Question..." Who Am I".. her personal Truth. As with TC, she will find it in what she discovers and creates in her Imagination...Do something they don't expect.
Ultimately, I think this boils down to soul purification, or spiritual perfection. And in terms of the story, this is necessary in order to create a perfect Earth, without Lord Foul in it. Linden's soul has its own form of Venom, so her journey isn't over yet. And as SRD revealed somewhere on his GI, he isn't finished with Covenant either.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Wayfriend wrote:Which reminds me of another thing that SRD said in the GI. He doesn't believe in things being "undone" in his stories.
In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Question: In the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, once the Laws of the Land are broken, can they be mended?
  • Life is process. The word "mended" sort of implies "returned to its original state". About that I'm skeptical. Everything has moved on. And the whole notion of "mending"--or even "healing"--broken Laws troubles me: it could so easily have the unintended effect of diminishing the significance of the earlier stories. "Well, the Land was in trouble, but now everything is fine. No problem. Ergo: no reason to read the previous books. Or even this one." The past made us who we are. I like to think that I can find a better solution to the dilemma.

    (08/30/2006)
So things don't return to what they were. However, new things can grow which replace the old things.

So I think it's possible that Linden created a new Law when she resurrected Covenant. But she would not have repaired the broken Laws of Life and Death.

One thing I am sure about: none of us can yet guess what "Oh Linden what have you done?" actually means.

One clue we have is the continual re-iteration throughout the books that Linden somehow screwed up everyone when she created the New Staff of Law. (Like it was her idea.) That by reinforcing the Law, no one can easily do what they need to do any more. Well, in once sense, that's a red herring, in that Law is important, too bad it makes things difficult, it makes things difficult for those who are out to do bad things, too. But in another sense, it does point to the idea that Law *could* be bad. If it prevents the wrong sorts of things.

It may be that Linden has somehow closed the path between Life and Death in a new way. Prevented the living from becoming Dead, for example. Boundaries are always two-way streets.

This could cause serious problems for someone like TC. He just became mortal. Caer Caveral did a lot of work to ensure that TC could do what he needs to do while dead. But now, if he dies ... there's no more chance of being Timewarden of the Dead. There's just nothing.

It may even be that Covenant's death could destroy the Arch. The Arch may have become mortal, tied to an earthly revenant whose death would be fatal for everyone.

That's certainly one hyothetical case. Which gives a whole new import to "What have you done?".
If the Arch became mortal, where it was originally "immortal," or really, eternal, then it would have been better off without Covenant. Or one could argue that acquiring mortality was the price to pay for Covenant's protection. It just seems overly paradoxical to think that the source of temporality is itself temporal. After all, something has to stand as an absolute here.
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Post by DukkhaWaynhim »

I don't think the answer lies in questioning the mortality of the Arch, but rather it's defensibility.
The TimeWarder, who is both the defender and the substance of the Arch itself, has been forcibly removed from his post by an act of rune-bound Law/Earthpower fueled by the passion of wild magic. So, now that he is at least metaphorically synonymous with the Arch of Time, and is now mortal and can be slain, doesn't this pose a unique and terrible opportunity for Foul & Friends?

Related point - Is there now any question who the Fatal Revenant is? In the first part of the book, the reference was to Roger glamoured to look like TC. At the very end of the book, the FR is the real deal.

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Post by wayfriend »

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:I don't think the answer lies in questioning the mortality of the Arch, but rather it's defensibility.
The TimeWarder, who is both the defender and the substance of the Arch itself, has been forcibly removed from his post by an act of rune-bound Law/Earthpower fueled by the passion of wild magic. So, now that he is at least metaphorically synonymous with the Arch of Time, and is now mortal and can be slain, doesn't this pose a unique and terrible opportunity for Foul & Friends?
Exactly. It is entirely parallel to the Staff of Law. Law did not need a Staff, but once the Staff was created, the Law was both strengthened and made dependent on the Staff. Now that TC has become part of the Arch (he is not THE Arch, I do not think), the Arch is stonger (it has a Timewarden) but is also dependent. If that dependency is destroyed, the Arch will be weakened.

But TC also said, at another point, that he is not yet the Arch. He said, "or I will be, if I ever use power again."

So it'll be interesting to see which way that goes.

Anyway, I have to surmise that a live TC has both advantages and disadvantages over a Dead one. Whatever the disadvantages are, are my concern.

Hmmm... if the Dead have Knowledge, and TC is Timewarden, could this Knowledge be necessary to being Timewarden? I wonder what happens to his being a Timewarden ... whatever that is.

BTW, I don't think Timewarden is something like a police officer. I think it refers to a jail. Foul's jail.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:I don't think the answer lies in questioning the mortality of the Arch, but rather it's defensibility.
Yes, but I didn't think the original comment was off-the-wall regarding a Covenant novel. I just wanted to clarify what an Arch of Time is in order to assure him that the source of temporality cannot itself be temporal. If however that turned out to be the case, then I feel we would need to be concerned more for SRD's flagging reasoning abilities than the fate of the Land itself.
DukkhaWaynhim wrote:The TimeWarder, who is both the defender and the substance of the Arch itself, has been forcibly removed from his post by an act of rune-bound Law/Earthpower fueled by the passion of wild magic. So, now that he is at least metaphorically synonymous with the Arch of Time, and is now mortal and can be slain, doesn't this pose a unique and terrible opportunity for Foul & Friends?

Related point - Is there now any question who the Fatal Revenant is? In the first part of the book, the reference was to Roger glamoured to look like TC. At the very end of the book, the FR is the real deal.

dw
Assuming that the title "Fatal Revenant" has any meaning. As SRD indicated on the GI, not even he knows what Lord Foul's bane is supposed to refer to, as it was Lester del Rey who came up with the title. And now Lester is dead so it would be very difficult to ask him where the idea came from, we can only say that the title was a marketing gimmick.
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Post by sherlock_525 »

Oooo!!! Temperal mechanics and the nature of reality. I knew this forum was going to be the shit! Anyway, I gotta agree with the idea that TC now being mortal will chang the nature of the arch of time, but what does this do for the idea of personal freedom? TC didn't choose to become mortal again so might this have an effect on his wielding of power? Perhaps this is the source of the "Linden what have you done" statement that has everybody in such an uproar?
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Post by stormrider »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
stormrider wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: It appears that their opinion of TC has turned 180 degrees since that time.
And I doubt the sincerity of anybody who claims to have liked TC from the very beginning.
I sincerely liked Covenant from the beginning. He was a leper, and I felt bad for him. If I had leprosy, I bet I'd be pretty whiney, too. And raping Lena was an awful thing to do, but he did think he was dreaming -- and he had been impotent. He was overwhelmed. He frustrated the hell out of me at times, but I always liked him.
Hmmm, well, you weren't supposed to.
Hm, actually, I don't think I was "supposed" to feel one way or the other. A reader inevitably identifies and empathizes with a character for personal reasons. I don't think Donaldson specifically intended for ALL of his readers to (initially) hate Covenant. He may have made Covenant difficult to like, simply so that he could emphasize his transformation into a "good" man who was determined to do the right thing, but I don't think SRD would be disappointed to know that not everyone who picked up the books thought TC was a pathetic loser from the get-go. :roll:
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"Meantime we shall express our darker purpose."
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Post by aliensporebomb »

I have an interesting feeling of what might happen here and
shattering the arch of time would certainly be something
"they won't expect" but that wouldn't be ideal.

Waking the worm was a big risk to get him back.

If Covenant has no power and is now her "tag along useless boy" there won't be much purpose for him but he may be
able to provide useful information (that may not be very
useful to a mortal perhaps?). He'll be more cryptic.
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