Plot hole? ***SPOILERS*** of course

[wayfriend]

And as far as why Esmer could time travel while the Elohim prevent all others, I don't believe they have any power over him - he's part Elohim.

I don't think the Elohim are gonna be like, oh, its okay if he destroys the Arch of Time - he's an Elohim. The Elohim are protecting the Earth itself. I don't think it matters against who.

I'm sure that Roger believes it, and believes he'll survive the awakening of the Worm.

SRD seems to have to contrive a bit to justify why anyone would serve Foul in the act of destroying the Earth. So I accept this "be gods" explanation as is, even though its kind of lame.

(Then again, I have a strong feeling that this adventure is going to affect Covenant's "real world". So anything might be possible.)

Here's a question - is the effect of Linden's Command permanent or transient? Will she always be able to "see the truth?"

I think, since she only asked to see the truth, and did not ask to always see the truth, she got what she asked for.

Still, I was rather disappointed that something as puissant as the Power of Command gave her so little of the truth. She could have gotten a lot more truth out of it. The location of Jeremiah. Foul's plan. etc.

It would have been cool if she had had more of a vision there. Something more like Covenant's soothtell. And frankly she deserved it.

I'm surprised no one has mentiond this, but in WGW we were explicitly told that Foul does not want to waken the Worm or break the Arcjh of Time unless he has possession of the White Gold. Otherwise he's toast too.

THAT has been hotly debated in the Watch for some time. Findail said that Foul would be served if Covenant raised the Worm, and THEN he said that Foul dares not the Worm without the ring. There's a contradiction there, and I don't think there's any definitive answer to which is correct. (There is more here.)

I don't think "show me the truth" will necessarily recoil against her, but I don't think she's the only person in the Land who could have found a way to use the PoC without bringing about destruction.

If that's true, then we have to give Linden props. She was well Chosen!

Still, finding a way for that to bite her in the A seems like a Donaldson thing to do ...

we are told by Roger and the Theomach that caesures cannot exist in a time when the Law of Death and the Law of Life were still undamaged; that is, caesures span time from the present to the breaking of those Laws only.

THAT is another nugget that we chewed on a while before in other threads. It's been brought up in the GI a lot, too.

The answer, as best we could interpret from the author, has something to do with that there is the time when the ceasures "are", and where they can "reach to". They contain "all times", and yet they somehow have a time that is their "now". The breaking of the Laws sets limits to them, but the limit of their "reach" is different from the limit of their "now". Also, they naturally have certain tropisms, but under someones control they can do other things. I don't have the thread ref handy, but I know its in the Runes forum somewhere.

we assume that the breaking of the Law of Death is the limit of when caesures can go, it means they must have been siphoning it off the Stone between The Illearth War and The Power That Preserves

No, it's clearly stated that they are accessing the Stone from a period before Drool found it. So the issue of Foul's 'notice' is not so exigent.

[Xar]

I'm sure that Roger believes it, and believes he'll survive the awakening of the Worm.

SRD seems to have to contrive a bit to justify why anyone would serve Foul in the act of destroying the Earth. So I accept this "be gods" explanation as is, even though its kind of lame.

Not so lame, if you consider that ultimate power is a very strong temptation, especially for one such as Roger who has been thoroughly corrupted by Foul for years (and who has also tasted the power of an Elohim, possibly whetting his appetite for more). Still, I can't help but think that one of the major challenges ahead for Covenant and Linden is to save Roger from himself - after all, the comment about evil which was mentioned earlier could apply to Roger as well (and his descent into evil was caused by external factors, since he was just a child when he first came into contact with Foul). Fascinatingly enough, one could even draw parallels between Roger and Jeremiah: both were exposed to Foul's malice and power when they were children (we have to assume Roger's first exposure was when Joan brought him to the Community of Retribution), both have been in thrall to Foul for years (Jeremiah via croyel, Roger more directly), both are children of the protagonists, both now have power and crave more power (ok, in Jeremiah's case it's the croyel, but still...). I think these similarities will come into play - perhaps when the time comes for Covenant and Linden to confront Jeremiah and Roger, it will be the way through which Linden realizes that the two aren't so different?

Still, I was rather disappointed that something as puissant as the Power of Command gave her so little of the truth. She could have gotten a lot more truth out of it. The location of Jeremiah. Foul's plan. etc.

It would have been cool if she had had more of a vision there. Something more like Covenant's soothtell. And frankly she deserved it.

I think the Power of Command is partially ruled also by the desires of the speaker... that is, when Linden asked to see the truth, she was thinking about Covenant and Jeremiah, so she saw the truth there - but not about, say, Foul's or Kastenessen's plans. Had she been a little less focused on her companions, or more focused on the whole situation, she might have received a vision like the soothtell.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The whole business of time travel is a tricky thing for sure, it seems as though everyone is afraid of altering "history" according to the people, but I think any change of past events would alter the time line, even if it were just something as seemingly insignificant as taking a breath and then a step. If three people suddenly appeared in a past instance I think that that alone would cause just as much of a ripple effect in time as anything that might affect the recorded history of the people from that time. basically I'm saying that if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? yes ..those sound waves still ripple through the air. just because there was no one there to hear it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

so I think the most logical assumption would be that things went down exactly as they were supposed to, Roger, Jeremiah and Linden were exactly where they were supposed to be, and that things unfolded as they should have all along, thanks to the Theomach who was also where he was supposed to be but was somehow also conscious of it, thus history as the people knew it remained as it was and the past went down just as it should have, most likely the Elohim knew this.

but that's just my guess.

I know certain people who have asked, from their reading of LFB, how there could be a legend of white gold if white gold didn't exist in the Land. This question was answered by the presence of the Theomach in Berek's time and his influence on Berek.

It's not a question for me that everything happened the way it was 'supposed' to happen. My only question has been: who is the one that is supposed to be "lost and found"? Who is the White Gold Wielder of legend? The legend refers to a "he" but that may have been due to the Theomach's revisionism. I know LA believes TC to be the Wielder, which is why LF couldn't defeat him at the end of the Second Chronicles although TC gave up the white gold willingly (thus preserving his faith in his own Unbelief, since no believer in the Land would ever commit such an atrocious act of betrayal). But the White Gold Wielder is described in legend as a contradiction, which aptly describes LA's wielding of both Law and Wild Magic moreso than the fact that white gold is itself an unnatural and "contradictory" amalgam of metals.

[The posting server seems to be down at the moment(?), so hopefully this post doesn't appear more than once.]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Anyway, after the revelation of Roger and the croyel, I thought that the reason why he was hiding his hand in his pocket during the meeting with Berek was partly because of the halfhand, and partly because that was the Kastenessen-hand: if anyone in the camp had seen a halfhand like Berek's, they would have at least talked about it, and they would have been very interested in it; maybe he feared that this would eventually risk someone finding out about the Kastenessen-hand...

Agreed, I thought Covenant/Roger was trying to hide the halfhand also. Xar's right when he says that this would have attracted alot of attention.

But Roger's purpose was to engage in an activity that would break the Arch. Showing his hand to Berek, or doing just about anything - showing his true self and tossing magma and brimstone at Berek, assassinating him, for example - would have broken the Arch. Showing his hand may have done enough damage to destroy the Arch. Perhaps Berek would have seen it for what it was, attacked him... any number of possibilities, all of which could shatter the Arch.

And I just can't accept that Roger desired Linden's despair so greatly that he would pass up such a perfect opportunity (messing with Berek, somehow). Sure, the Theomach was there, but he's hardly all powerful. Roger made him "disappear" once, and when he first detected the Theomach, he raged at him, saying, essentially, that he could hurt him if he wanted to.

Answering this requires some understanding of Lord Foul's psychology.
LF wants to bring LA's despair to the breaking point. He doesn't merely require victory, he requires it in the most brutal way possible. That, beyond a cunning Despite, is his nature.

It is also necessary to understand human psychology, since nothing in the Land is real anyway, it is only fantasy, a shared dream.

For example, the word "caesure" should properly be pronounced "seizure," it describes the insanity occurring in Joan's mind, reminescent of an epileptic attack and the way it will appear to "storm" through a person's brain like a tornado when observed during a CT scan.

LF can't simply bring down the Arch of Time any more than the White Gold Wielder can simply up and commit suicide. Suicide is an act of despair, it is despair incarnate. So LF intends to send the Wielder on the path leading to greatest despair. In the first two Chronicles he did not count on the power of Unbelief and leprosy to protect Covenant from his Despite, it is TC's very Unbelief in the Land, or rather, his unyielding faith in Unbelief and leprosy, which preserved it from destruction.

LA, on the other hand, has no Unbelief to protect her from despair. However, she did learn about despair as an innocent child from her father who committed suicide right before her unprotected eyes. She had no adult psychological repressive mechanisms to protect her from the complete horror of his act, and thus she has committed her life to the exact opposite. To LA, the Land is just another victim, a sick patient to be saved, she considers it to be as real as any patient in our world. In fact, the Land IS real, in the sense that any dream is as real as the mind which created it. In healing the Land, LA hopes to heal herself of the trauma imposed on her by her father.

I predict that LF's Despite will not lead Linden to an act of suicidal despair, but that he will force Linden to face her own inner Despite forced upon her by her father, and repressed through her attempts to heal others. This Despite is symbolized, in the dream, as a Last Dark, the eternal, freezing cold emptiness felt as the future of the Land when one enters a caesure. After which, I predict that LA will be the Creator of a new Earth.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Anyway, after the revelation of Roger and the croyel, I thought that the reason why he was hiding his hand in his pocket during the meeting with Berek was partly because of the halfhand, and partly because that was the Kastenessen-hand: if anyone in the camp had seen a halfhand like Berek's, they would have at least talked about it, and they would have been very interested in it; maybe he feared that this would eventually risk someone finding out about the Kastenessen-hand...

Agreed, I thought Covenant/Roger was trying to hide the halfhand also. Xar's right when he says that this would have attracted alot of attention.

But Roger's purpose was to engage in an activity that would break the Arch. Showing his hand to Berek, or doing just about anything - showing his true self and tossing magma and brimstone at Berek, assassinating him, for example - would have broken the Arch. Showing his hand may have done enough damage to destroy the Arch. Perhaps Berek would have seen it for what it was, attacked him... any number of possibilities, all of which could shatter the Arch.

And I just can't accept that Roger desired Linden's despair so greatly that he would pass up such a perfect opportunity (messing with Berek, somehow). Sure, the Theomach was there, but he's hardly all powerful. Roger made him "disappear" once, and when he first detected the Theomach, he raged at him, saying, essentially, that he could hurt him if he wanted to.

Answering this requires some understanding of Lord Foul's psychology.
LF wants to bring LA's despair to the breaking point. He doesn't merely require victory, he requires it in the most brutal way possible. That, beyond a cunning Despite, is his nature.

It is also necessary to understand human psychology, since nothing in the Land is real anyway, it is only fantasy, a shared dream.

For example, the word "caesure" should properly be pronounced "seizure," it describes the insanity occurring in Joan's mind, reminescent of an epileptic attack and the way it will appear to "storm" through a person's brain like a tornado when observed during a CT scan.

LF can't simply bring down the Arch of Time any more than the White Gold Wielder can simply up and commit suicide. Suicide is an act of despair, it is despair incarnate. So LF intends to send the Wielder on the path leading to greatest despair. In the first two Chronicles he did not count on the power of Unbelief and leprosy to protect Covenant from his Despite, it is TC's very Unbelief in the Land, or rather, his unyielding faith in Unbelief and leprosy, which preserved it from destruction.

LA, on the other hand, has no Unbelief to protect her from despair. However, she did learn about despair as an innocent child from her father who committed suicide right before her unprotected eyes. She had no adult psychological repressive mechanisms to protect her from the complete horror of his act, and thus she has committed her life to the exact opposite. To LA, the Land is just another victim, a sick patient to be saved, she considers it to be as real as any patient in our world. In fact, the Land IS real, in the sense that any dream is as real as the mind which created it. In healing the Land, LA hopes to heal herself of the trauma imposed on her by her father.

I predict that LF's Despite will not lead Linden to an act of suicidal despair, but that he will force Linden to face her own inner Despite forced upon her by her father, and repressed through her attempts to heal others. This Despite is symbolized, in the dream, as a Last Dark, the eternal, freezing cold emptiness felt as the future of the Land when one enters a caesure. After which, I predict that LA will be the Creator of a new Earth.

[dlbpharmd]

It's entirely possible that the song sung by the New Lords in LFB ("Wild Magic Graven in every rock") was written by The Theomach himself. Thus, it simply could've been taught through the generations, with no one really ever understanding it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

LA, on the other hand, has no Unbelief to protect her from despair. However, she did learn about despair as an innocent child from her father who committed suicide right before her unprotected eyes. She had no adult psychological repressive mechanisms to protect her from the complete horror of his act, and thus she has committed her life to the exact opposite. To LA, the Land is just another victim, a sick patient to be saved, she considers it to be as real as any patient in our world. In fact, the Land IS real, in the sense that any dream is as real as the mind which created it. In healing the Land, LA hopes to heal herself of the trauma imposed on her by her father.

I should edit that last statement to show that LA has no such CONSCIOUS hope of self-healing, it is all a subconscious process symbolized in the shared dream which is the Land. She subconsciously hopes to heal herself through healing the Land, to save herself in saving the Earth, and thus symbolically to prevent her father from carrying out his suicidal act of self-immolation which he committed in front of her when she was only a helpless child.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm sure that Roger believes it, and believes he'll survive the awakening of the Worm.
SRD seems to have to contrive a bit to justify why anyone would serve Foul in the act of destroying the Earth. So I accept this "be gods" explanation as is, even though its kind of lame.

Roger believes Foul's lie, of course, because he is power mad as Foul. So of course, SRD "contrived" the story so that Foul would offer such a bargain to Roger. A fiction novel itself is a contrivance. SRD contrived everything in it. What's interesting is the role which Roger has to play in LA's destiny, and that is: to bring her closer to the greatest level of despair possible by bringing that which she fears the most. She will destroy the Earth if that's what it takes to save her son ("beware of love"). And in her darkest hour, when she confronts the end of all things, that's just what she might do.

By rousing of the Worm, Linden has already proven herself willing to risk Desecration in order to preserve that which she loves. In a way she is as selfish as the Elohim.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think it's that simple. If it is, and that's the explanation we have, then I think that the question of the Insequent being deux es machina - a cheap plot device - is a valid question.

About his hand: I'm not making a big deal out of that. What concerns me is not so much Roger's/Linden's/the croyel's journey in time, it's what the possibilities are for everybody else.

If Roger and the croyel can move through time, then it stands to reason that Foul should be able to think of a better way to ensure the destruction of the Arch than leaving it in the hands of those two - highly unreliable, and at least one of them is mentally unstable. Foul has Joan in his power. If the Demondim can get at the Illearth Stone (one of *many* banes - I certainly hope we see more in these Last Chronicles), then Foul should be able to as well. Sure, it didn't work for him the last time he used it, but he's smarter now - and he doesn't have Covenant standing in his way (not directly, at least). All he has to do is alter time. For someone who created the Sunbane, I'm expecting a bit more from Foul.

Notice the progression of Foul's methods, not only from one Chronicle to the next, but from the very legends about Foul on to the present. Foul learns from his mistakes and thereby changes his methods. Hasn't he tried practically everything? He even had the white gold IN HIS POSSESSION, given up freely by Thomas Covenant himself. And that STILL didn't work, because, ultimately, Covenant's Unbelief was stronger than Foul's Despite.

Now he is trying a more indirect, hands-off approach: merely giving a word of advice here and there, and awaiting events.

He was also being a very cavalier Foul at the beginning of ROTE. I think this symbolizes the severity of the extent to which his methods have changed. This is a very DIFFERENT Lord Foul from the one who has tried before and failed.

[stormrider]

It's not a question for me that everything happened the way it was 'supposed' to happen. My only question has been: who is the one that is supposed to be "lost and found"? Who is the White Gold Wielder of legend? The legend refers to a "he" but that may have been due to the Theomach's revisionism. I know LA believes TC to be the Wielder, which is why LF couldn't defeat him at the end of the Second Chronicles although TC gave up the white gold willingly (thus preserving his faith in his own Unbelief, since no believer in the Land would ever commit such an atrocious act of betrayal). But the White Gold Wielder is described in legend as a contradiction, which aptly describes LA's wielding of both Law and Wild Magic moreso than the fact that white gold is itself an unnatural and "contradictory" amalgam of metals.

Covenant is definitely the white gold wielder of legend. When SRD wrote the first chronicles, he didn't intend to do a second, so Linden Avery didn't even exist. He's come back and changed a lot of things, but I don't think he'll change that -- it's too major. It's Covenant's personality and soul that make him the paradox; comparatively, the fact that Linden has used both Law and wild magic is incidental. It doesn't make her a paradox. And even if Linden remains the focal point of the last two books, she ultimately can't be the one who "saves or damns" the earth. She can do a lot of good, or she can do a lot of damage (like rousing the worm), but in the end, it'll come down to Covenant.

Of course, I won't be surprised if the way it comes down to Covenant is some stupid "give Linden all the power!" decision/surrender wherein he projects all his might into her, or some Avery-promoting crap like that. Ugh.

[burgs]

in the end, it'll come down to Covenant.

I agree.

[dlbpharmd]

in the end, it'll come down to Covenant.

I agree.

I sure hope so. The thing that's gonna piss me off is if it's just Linden, Linden Linden all the time right up til the end.

[stormrider]

in the end, it'll come down to Covenant.

I agree.

I sure hope so. The thing that's gonna piss me off is if it's just Linden, Linden Linden all the time right up til the end.

I have a feeling you may end up pissed off.

I'll be pissed, too. I've already prepared myself for it.

[Ur Dead]

It isn't going to be Linden solely. Anele is the redemption. If it was going to be Linden only.. Why did she bring back Covenant. She needs him. So many of the Lands people and creatures have been involved already that there is no possible way that Linden will do it all.

She made the staff and healed the Land in the second Chronicles, but that was after all the other required events.

[Aleksandr]

Re: Foul is a "god" - if the Worm wakes up and eats the world, why is Foul's survival dependent on wild magic?

Foul has become in some sense corporeal, or at least tied down to the material world (see: Sauron in LOTR; he was godlike too, but he was bound to the material world, and to his Ring, and so was vulnerable). If the Earth is destroyed by the Worm, Foul would just be left as a disembodied spirit floating around the rubble. That's not what he wants.

Re: Findail outright lied about the Guardian of the One Tree, how can we believe anything else that he said?

If we're going to go to that extreme maybe he was also lying about the croyel and they're really good guys?

Re: THAT has been hotly debated in the Watch for some time. Findail said that Foul would be served if Covenant raised the Worm, and THEN he said that Foul dares not the Worm without the ring. There's a contradiction there, and I don't think there's any definitive answer to which is correct

Foul wanted TC to give him the Ring: that was the focus of his initial prophecy in TWL: "of you're own volition you will give me the Ring". He didn't say "You will destroy the Earth". The business with the Worm (and the enhancement of TC's power by venom) was intended to freak TC out so badly he wouldn't dare raise his power and would, in despair, hand the Ring over to Foul. Almost the way it played out, except that TC wasn't in despair, he had figured out the plan and knew how to beat it.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

Wow, quite the thead.

I'll short form my opinions/replies.

Foul Being Destroyed by the Worm:

If at the end of FR Linden woke the worm does that mean the world ends immediately? There is likely a period of destruction during which the world is destoryed before the worm breaks the Arch. In that case Foul would still be trapped and mortal until then as it is the Arch which limits him in time.

Roger Hiding His Hand:

I agree he was prevented from tampering by the Theomach at that time. He also wanted to get to the Earthblood to wake the worm there because he said Jerimiah had the things he needed to make his escape doorway (if Foul double crossed him) right here. HERE was said in the cave of the Earthblood. He likely didn't have the resources elsewhere for his escape hatch plan.

Esmer's Lattitude:

I don't think the Elohim can do anything about him. Remember he unilaterally took away/surpressed part of the Elohim's gift of tongues to the Giants so they couldn't understand the ur-viles. That in itself is suspicious as he claims to be doing a "fair" translation effort. What is he really hiding?

Caesures Back in Time:

I think (I read) that they extend easily back to the breaking of the Laws of Life and Death, but can go back further. The demondim could have tapped the Illearth Stone long before it was found by Drool. In fact, wasn't it alluded to that they affected/seduced by it somewhat already in their past in addition to the Raver?

Foul Needing White Gold to Survive the Worm:

Before the only way for him to wake the worm was to walk up to the One Tree and knock. Now may be different as he has done it remotely (first in the attempt through Roger, then through Linden). It is a plot hole that the Earthblood could command the Worm to Wake as by definition it existed before the world (the first limit of the blood precludes it).

[burgs]

It is a plot hole that the Earthblood could command the Worm to Wake as by definition it existed before the world (the first limit of the blood precludes it).

Interesting observation....

[ScrapOSamadhi]

I was thinking about my observation the Earthblood could not wake the worm because it existed before the world.

It may just come down to the nature of the command. Direct commands vs. Foul, Covenant, Linden, the Worm are likely to fail (or the recipient can choose to ignore them). However, the commander could command an elligable proxy to undertake the action for them. Like Elena trying to command Kevin to kill Foul. Roger could command something to do with the earth (massive earthquake, etc.) which would have the side effect of waking the worm. Foul is a bit of a special case as I doubt anything in the world can kill him so he is protected both ways.

On another point:

I noticed Infelice's comment about the Elohim now being "devoured" by the worm sounded very similar to the "stars" the worm was devouring before it fell asleep at the world's beginning. That implies the Elohim are those creatures (and by definition can likely not be commanded either, although that doesn't quite feel right).

[wayfriend]

Not really - the Theomach mentions that if he had not altered Roger's time travel destination, the Elohim would have.

Okay. So the Elohim are preventing all time travel. And so the only way Roger could go back in time and get to the Blood is to take Linden. Because then the Elohim would not stop them; they would rely on Linden to. If I understand this theory correctly. ... This doesn't hold up somwhere. But I can't put my finger on it.

I think I am beginning to see where this idea doesn't make sense to me.

If the Elohim are sitting on their hands leaving it to Linden to protect Time and the Arch, this must mean that they trust Linden to a great degree. After all, the existence of the Earth and Time itself is at stake. They are trusting Linden to stop anything that could imperil the Earth. And they are trusting her to not screw something up herself.

But this is not the Elohim we know. Not only do they not trust her, they in fact fear she will imperil the Earth herself. But they also go out of their way to make sure Linden doesn't know what's going on.

What kind of people can respond to the threat of total anhilation by trusting someone that they fear, and that they actively keep in the dark, to save the Earth, rather than do it themselves? "Lazy" does not cover this.

[CT]

On another point:

I noticed Infelice's comment about the Elohim now being "devoured" by the worm sounded very similar to the "stars" the worm was devouring before it fell asleep at the world's beginning. That implies the Elohim are those creatures (and by definition can likely not be commanded either, although that doesn't quite feel right).

ahhhh....I'm having an epiphany here. Based on the legend Pitchwife tells of the creation of the world (quoted on another thread in the FR forum which I just read so it's fresh in my mind), the worm ate all the stars, which made it lethargic so it laid itself down in a ball and went to sleep, and the power of the "stars" caused the rock and dirt and so on to grow on the worm's skin. OK, that much we know. Now, SrapO's comment fits here b/c if the stars = the elohim, then it all starts to make more sense. To the point: the elohim are in fact those 'stars', they were consumed but then were able to affect the worm and put it to sleep, and their "elohim power" caused the Earth to grow out of it. We already know the elohim are "earthpower incarnate", and what else would make the Earth grow out of the worm except Earthpower? And therefore of course the elohim's wurd is the worm - keeping it asleep is their only option since they don't get to exist up in the heavens anymore after being eaten. Somehow they were able to not only put the worm to sleep, but by growing the earth they were able to make a place outside the worm where they could exist.

I've always wondered how the Giants' tales of creation squared with the Lords', and now I wonder more. Not sure how the old beggar in the real world fits in.

I feel like I'm mangling this, but the elohim now make more sense (at least to me!).