Plot hole? ***SPOILERS*** of course

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:53 pm

Nope, you're not mangling it, as far as I am concerned. I, too, think the Elohim are the stars. One merely needs to read the description of the Elohimfest to be as sure as rain.

Or, rather, they were the stars. They were transformed, and can't be stars again. For we know that the Elohim will not survive the destruction of the Arch.

Post by **Borillar** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:21 pm

Wow, I totally and completely missed that connection between the Elohim and the myth of the Worm (although I remember thinking that Infelice's use of the word "devour" was very strange). And I would agree.

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:23 pm

"Devour" is indeed a strange word.

The Elohim's description of the Würd of the Earth leaves no doubt that the Worm is their Würd. And then they said, "We are the Würd", "From it we arose, and in it we have our being."

So what does it mean when one's Würd devours one? They devour themselves?

Post by CT » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:22 pm

Wayfriend wrote:And then they said, "We are the Würd"

I think they're just laying the groundwork for ElohimAid2008...

We are the wurd,
we are the children (of the creator)
we are the ones who make a brighter day
so lets start giving (a rats arse about the Land)

Post by **Seppi2112** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Wayfriend wrote:Or, rather, they were the stars. They were transformed, and can't be stars again. For we know that the Elohim will not survive the destruction of the Arch.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the INSEQUENT to be the stars? I mean besides all the references to the stars SRD throws into FR everytime the Harrow or Mahdoubt is around, the Insequent hate the Elohim for their arrogance... what would be more arrogant than the Elohim assuming that they were the children of the creator when in reality the Insequent were.

Or maybe they both were the creator's children and there's a Weird/Worm/Wurd thing going on between the two groups just like the Waynhim/Ur-Vile thing? o_0

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:21 pm

Seppi2112 wrote:Or maybe they both were the creator's children and there's a Weird/Worm/Wurd thing going on between the two groups just like the Waynhim/Ur-Vile thing? o_0

What makes you think that the Würd and the weird aren't the same thing?

CT wrote:We are the wurd,
we are the children ...

Argh! Song in head! Song in head!

Post by **Lord Robertus** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:55 pm

dlbpharmd wrote:
burgs wrote:
stormrider wrote:in the end, it'll come down to Covenant.
I agree.
I sure hope so. The thing that's gonna piss me off is if it's just Linden, Linden Linden all the time right up til the end.

I third that

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:32 am

Lord Robertus wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
burgs wrote: I agree.
I sure hope so. The thing that's gonna piss me off is if it's just Linden, Linden Linden all the time right up til the end.
I third that

Welcome to THOOLAH.

Post by **ur-James** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:57 pm

burgs wrote:
Xar wrote:So, in short, if Roger and the croyel had traveled back in time without Linden, the Elohim would have showed up and pummeled Roger back into his proper time (or worse). Linden was Roger's "insurance policy" against the Elohim.
And again - since the Elohim have said that they don't care about Foul (to paraphrase it) why doesn't Foul travel back in time?

There are only so many times that we as readers can expect Foul to stand back and watch things unfold, when he could achieve his goals by himself - better and faster.

So far, in this Last Chronicles, it seems that Foul is more capable than ever of directly influencing events. Time travel wasn't an option in the First and Second Chrons, but it is now - and one person can alter the course of time.

This post was on the first page, and I haven't read all 4 pages of this thread, so if I'm stating something that someone else already has, I apologize. (I promise, I will read the thread)

I just started re-reading the second chrons. In TWL, Linden asks many of the same questions that burgs is asking. Why doesn't Foul just do all this himself? It's because he can't. SRD states in TWL (and possibly elsewhere) that Foul has to manipulate others into doing his bidding. It's how he works, and we all know what a master manipulator Foul is. Even when he tells Linden that he's not actively involved, merely whispering words of advice here and there, he's manipulating Linden. If Foul could just go back in time, kill Berek, break the arch and be free, we wouldn't have anything to read about.

I'm not sure if SRD has explained why Foul can't alter events himself, I'm sure he has and I just can't remember it. But Foul has to use humans to do his bidding. Whether it's because he has to for some reason, or he just gets a perverse pleasure out of watching these puny humans destroy themselves with despair (which is his M.O. for sure), that's the way it is.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:07 pm

SRD mentions it in the GI somewhere that LF's main power is the power of pure scorn. He is a God but not in an omnipotent sense. He can corrupt, that is his strength, and he can despise. He works that way.

Post by **callback** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:45 pm

Seppi2112 wrote:
Wayfriend wrote:Or, rather, they were the stars. They were transformed, and can't be stars again. For we know that the Elohim will not survive the destruction of the Arch.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the INSEQUENT to be the stars? I mean besides all the references to the stars SRD throws into FR everytime the Harrow or Mahdoubt is around, the Insequent hate the Elohim for their arrogance... what would be more arrogant than the Elohim assuming that they were the children of the creator when in reality the Insequent were.

Or maybe they both were the creator's children and there's a Weird/Worm/Wurd thing going on between the two groups just like the Waynhim/Ur-Vile thing? o_0

It is very obvious that the Elohim are the Creator's children and former stars. It is equally obvious that the Insequent are in some way related to the Elohim. You mention the Waynhim/Ur-Vile relationship. One possible theory would be that a choice was made betweein an Elohim weird of searching for truth and completeness within oneself and an Insequent weird of searching for the same things outside of oneself. Just a theory, though.

Post by **Relayer** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:41 am

callback wrote:It is very obvious that the Elohim are the Creator's children and former stars. It is equally obvious that the Insequent are in some way related to the Elohim. You mention the Waynhim/Ur-Vile relationship. One possible theory would be that a choice was made betweein an Elohim weird of searching for truth and completeness within oneself and an Insequent weird of searching for the same things outside of oneself. Just a theory, though.

And a quite reasonable one at that.

Post by **Auleliel** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:04 pm

Lord Robertus wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
burgs wrote: I agree.
I sure hope so. The thing that's gonna piss me off is if it's just Linden, Linden Linden all the time right up til the end.
I third that

I fourth that

Post by **Auleliel** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:05 pm

Relayer wrote:
callback wrote:It is very obvious that the Elohim are the Creator's children and former stars. It is equally obvious that the Insequent are in some way related to the Elohim. You mention the Waynhim/Ur-Vile relationship. One possible theory would be that a choice was made betweein an Elohim weird of searching for truth and completeness within oneself and an Insequent weird of searching for the same things outside of oneself. Just a theory, though.
And a quite reasonable one at that.

Agreed

Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:06 pm

Auleliel wrote:
Lord Robertus wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote: I sure hope so. The thing that's gonna piss me off is if it's just Linden, Linden Linden all the time right up til the end.
I third that
I fourth that

SRD stated in his GI that it wasn't called the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant for nothing. So no worries.

Post by **Auleliel** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:15 pm

Yes, but in two entire books we've seen no more than half a chapter with TC. I don't think I can stand two more books of LA's repetitive internal conflicts/whining, even if TC does play more of a role. If AATE doesn't have some chapters from TC's POV, I may decide not to finish the series at all...

Okay, fine, I'll read it, but I won't enjoy it much.

Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:21 pm

Auleliel wrote:Yes, but in two entire books we've seen no more than half a chapter with TC. I don't think I can stand two more books of LA's repetitive internal conflicts/whining, even if TC does play more of a role. If AATE doesn't have some chapters from TC's POV, I may decide not to finish the series at all...

Okay, fine, I'll read it, but I won't enjoy it much.

Well as he also wrote in his GI, the POV depends on whoever is the central character in that part of the novel. So who do you think will be the central character in The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant now that TC has returned?

Post by **Scott** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:15 am

I know this one. It's Stave!!!

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:44 pm

Scott wrote:I know this one. It's Stave!!!

SRD's writing is full of surprises, so maybe you're right

Post by **Auleliel** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:35 pm

I certainly hope not...

But then again, Stave would be infinitely better than Linden.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Plot hole? SPOILERS of course