"Find me"

[earthbrah]

WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote

First she failed to question the false puzzlement of the Demondim, even though she recognized it clearly. She failed to ask why the evil ur-viles are helping her at every desperate need. She failed to ask why Covenant/Roger was not affected by Berek's touch of Earthpower. And so on.

Yeah, I agree. She did ask Esmer about the urviles, but of course his answers are ever so cryptic. She was continuing to ask herself about these things, to keep her eyes open and see what's happening to try to descry the truth. The problem for her was that she was firstly blinded by Jeremiah's presence and the dire need to free him from the Despiser's torture (or so she then believed). Second, all that's happening in the Land these days is just so confusing. There are so many players with power, it was difficult for her to keep it all straight, to nail down a hard answer to a desprerate question. She was trying, but she was just not adequate in and of herself to figure it out. But then, that's what this LC is about largely--Linden Avery still having something to say about the redemptive potential of inadequacy.

Again, I ask WWCD? What would Covenant do? In the long run, his methods never failed him, even when he didn't know he was applying any method except Unbelief.

Unbelief is the key to unraveling Despite.

You know, I've been thinking more and more about Unbelief. In the first Chronicles, it was extantly the key to unraveling Lord Foul's malice. In the Second Chronicles, it didn't really play that much of an overt part, but was still present in the undertones of TC's actions. Linden's going to have to come to her own Unbelief about all this situation. (Where's lurch? would like him to chime in here about surreality/unreality and how they're connected!) We haven't heard the last of Unbelief; it'll play an important role before this is all said and done.

And as for her choice to keep her unbelief about Roger and Jeremiah to herself until that culminating moment deep within Melenkurion Skyweir, I don't see that she had much choice. She didn't have anybody to confide in. I thought her choice of Commands from the Earthblood was quite sensible; it was the one way she could find the truth that she needed. But with Commanding Earthblood, there's always some backlash. Her heart was transformed into stone, hardened against crumbling in the despair of learning, seeing the truth of her son's plight. And the staff was altered as well, turned black as a result of her expression of railing against despite. The Staff's transformation and her's in those moments are one.

[lurch]

I think one has to loosen up on the reigns of Literal when it comes to sci-fi/ Fantasy. I mean ,,Gulliver Travels remains World Class Social Commentary,, if one can get by the talking horses and ...well..anybody who still takes the scene in the Hollow literally,, aamm,,good luck with all the dilemmas you create for your self.

Puttin all the words TC said to Linden together, does echo thematic refrains from 1st and 2nd chronicles..well. heck..look who is saying the words..The words, " Find Me" in a series about Linden discovering herself,,at the literal level, creates paradox, confusion, or as one thread is titled.. Why I am disappointed..So, rather than do what TC would do.. do what Donaldson suggests in his writings.. Examine the paradox closely and find the false assumption.

" Find Me," as Worm suggests, shouldn't be taken literally..A figurative understanding has to be discovered. Seems to me,,I am now at the point of what divides many fans on their opinions of the Last Chronicles..If you take Last Chrons Literally, then disappointment is yours. If you achieve the Figurative,,then it is successful on as many levels as one can conceive. "

Find Me" is the Way of TC,, not the end point , not the tangible,,but the " process"...The end point for Linden is Linden,, Her Truth, Her Identity.. Who She Is..not Who Tom is...There is a common element..( that for some reason, posters here seem to run away from), a common element that binds these two characters together,and its as etheral as the figurative and illusionary as the Literal,, that is LOVE. Do not forget that Tom took a snake bite to save a little girl,,and took a knife in the heart to save Joan. So, " find Me" , as in Toms way , has to include some Love that is unbounded, un qualified, free, on a scale that is quite,, figurative. Perhaps a realization of " who am I?" in its most basic, distilled, essential form.

[earthbrah]

Wow, sorry about the double posting above. My internet connection here in Tashkent can go screwy at any moment, and run rogue wild doing whatever it wants! [Fixed - mod]

You keep bringing up LOVE, lurch, so I figured I'd chime in on that. (I also recall TC giving his life to save the Land as an act of love.) Linded loves TC, but that's not why she sought him out. She sought him out because she also loves her son, and she thinks that TC is the only way to find and free him.

Literally (of literature) speaking, Linden is willing to risk the entire Earth to save but one person, Jeremiah. TC did the same similar thing with the girl and the snake bite. Since the Land didn't fare too badly in the wake of TC's decision, I think Linden's decision won't necessarily destroy the Earth, no matter how many powers she wields.

Figuratively, Linden and TC's love for each other has been a defining element for both these characters' identities since the Second Chronicles. Linden just needs to relax and be (true). There's only so much she can "control". Her identity has already changed by being too uptight about things, hence her stone heart and the blackening of the Staff.

Chill, lady. Find your center and thereby yourself, and you'll be able to forgive (with love) those things you cannot change. You'll also have a clearer head about those things that you can change.

[lurch]

..Well , I am having Trouble with this " destroy the Land to save her son.". just like bringing back Tom wakes the worm.. Saving Jerrry btw of destroying the Land ,,is an assumption being made by all the characters,,is possibly a set up by the author as an assumption being taken as fact, an Illusion. Just look at the Waking The Worm concept and how that has become an assumed " fact" around here already.

Seems to me, destroying The Land to save her son, runs contrary to the years of patience and caring of Jeremiah as well as the caring and not giving up of her patient Joan. The despair of failing in her attempts to successfully, care, protect, and heal these two patients of hers is what she is dealing with in the Land. She has to heal herself, find herself anew, Love herself first, before she can move on to those around her. Hence the going back in Time and dealing with olde issues. Tom is one of those Olde Issues. Its gonna hurt, but she really must get beyond him. Like he said,, don't forget I'm a dead man.

I found it very interesting how she needed to know if Jeremiah, in the Land , had proof of taking any bullets,,and how she was played by the no and then yes answers . How she would " settle" for Jeremiah being healed and happy in the Land since he was probably dead or dieing in the real world struck me as a compromise or sell out to her basic foundation of being a healer. I guess its part of accepting her own death as "fact." Her heart of stone is a consequence and yet is already showing cracks and fissures from the strains of conflict and paradox. Again, examine the paradoxes closely, and find the false assumptions.

There is a Love that will give momentum to Linden to rise above the paradoxes. Perhaps Tom will be of service to help her realize it. " Find Me"

I have to ask at this juncture,, where is Hope?..after the experience that led up to and including the Hollow catastrophe..where is Hope? Does one accept the calamity and live or die under its pall or does one create anew and return with new perspective? There is Hope in Change. Obtaining a different or deeper or wider or broader understanding of Love , seems to me a key " evolution" that Linden must go thru inorder to really change. The Mahdoubt experience has led Linden to that brink of discovery.

Perhaps, one can see the necessity of despair,, as a part B hardener or catalyst mixed with a Part A resin , the potential, Hope, , to form a third element C, an epoxy that bonds everything and anything together. Of course, the rite ratios of each is something we learn .

[thewormoftheworld'send]

WormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote

First she failed to question the false puzzlement of the Demondim, even though she recognized it clearly. She failed to ask why the evil ur-viles are helping her at every desperate need. She failed to ask why Covenant/Roger was not affected by Berek's touch of Earthpower. And so on.

Yeah, I agree. She did ask Esmer about the urviles, but of course his answers are ever so cryptic. She was continuing to ask herself about these things, to keep her eyes open and see what's happening to try to descry the truth. The problem for her was that she was firstly blinded by Jeremiah's presence and the dire need to free him from the Despiser's torture (or so she then believed). Second, all that's happening in the Land these days is just so confusing. There are so many players with power, it was difficult for her to keep it all straight, to nail down a hard answer to a desprerate question. She was trying, but she was just not adequate in and of herself to figure it out. But then, that's what this LC is about largely--Linden Avery still having something to say about the redemptive potential of inadequacy.

Again, I ask WWCD? What would Covenant do? In the long run, his methods never failed him, even when he didn't know he was applying any method except Unbelief.

Unbelief is the key to unraveling Despite.

You know, I've been thinking more and more about Unbelief. In the first Chronicles, it was extantly the key to unraveling Lord Foul's malice. In the Second Chronicles, it didn't really play that much of an overt part, but was still present in the undertones of TC's actions. Linden's going to have to come to her own Unbelief about all this situation. (Where's lurch? would like him to chime in here about surreality/unreality and how they're connected!) We haven't heard the last of Unbelief; it'll play an important role before this is all said and done.

And as for her choice to keep her unbelief about Roger and Jeremiah to herself until that culminating moment deep within Melenkurion Skyweir, I don't see that she had much choice. She didn't have anybody to confide in. I thought her choice of Commands from the Earthblood was quite sensible; it was the one way she could find the truth that she needed. But with Commanding Earthblood, there's always some backlash. Her heart was transformed into stone, hardened against crumbling in the despair of learning, seeing the truth of her son's plight. And the staff was altered as well, turned black as a result of her expression of railing against despite. The Staff's transformation and her's in those moments are one.

Unbelief was important in the Second Chronicles too, as Covenant rode the horns of the dilemma between Belief and Unbelief successfully to defeat LF.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Wow, sorry about the double posting above. My internet connection here in Tashkent can go screwy at any moment, and run rogue wild doing whatever it wants! [Fixed - mod]

I have lots of problems here too, but only with ihugny's server.

[earthbrah]

Ok, this might be a bit off topic, but it's connected enough (in my mind) to warrant sharing.

Last night I was going to a party at a colleague's house here in Tashkent. I'd been there once before, but didn't really remember how to get there. I had a map, but maps can be pretty useless in Uzbekistan! So, my driver comes to pick me up, asks where we're going, and I sort of tell him, "I don't know." I try to show him the map, but he just scoffs at it. So I call the woman whose house I'm going to to get directions.

She's describing how to get there, how the street winds this way and that, turn at this landmark, etc., and the whole time I'm looking at the map trying to put it all together. And I'm not really hearing what she's saying (seeing it in my mind), or putting it together by looking at the map; neither is clear to me, and Zhenya is the whole time asking if she speaks Russian (ba Russkie? Gavoryet Russkie?-- NO, Zhenya, let me listen!) The earthbrah is getting upset! So I hang up the phone. And then I have this moment where the words "Find me" echo somewhere in my consciousness. (Man, you guys are really seeping in there!)

I laugh to myself as Zhenya (the driver) is driving us on through the town. I'm thinking about the directions the woman had given me and I notice that the map is still sitting unfolded in my lap. My laughter grows richer. At this point, I am totally relaxed. I am not uptight (as I usually am when going somewhere new or unfamiliar, or was just minutes earlier when I was on the phone with the woman with Zhenya talking Russian in my ear), but am rather enjoying the drive and the search for the house.

"Find me." I hear it again, and I can't stop from laughing out loud at this point. I see the street. "Zhenya, turn left here!" The street winds (just like the woman said it would); I see the landmark, "Zhenya, left here!". Bam, the house is right there. My laughter at this point is akin to a giant's, from deep within the gut.

In the end, the destination was reached by my letting go of the external assistance of the map (something which I've clung to too often in the past, and it's never really done me any good, at least not here). I remained relaxed and focused on the inner image of the directions I had been given. The "Find me" mindset that found its way into the fray kept me honest and happy in the moment, and the party was found with zero complications.

Hail "Find me" thread!

[lurch]

eb....excellent story,,,may the doors in your mind that led to that experience stay forever open...beauty...

[Zarathustra]

..Well , I am having Trouble with this " destroy the Land to save her son.". just like bringing back Tom wakes the worm.. Saving Jerrry btw of destroying the Land ,,is an assumption being made by all the characters,,is possibly a set up by the author as an assumption being taken as fact, an Illusion. Just look at the Waking The Worm concept and how that has become an assumed " fact" around here already.

Seems to me, destroying The Land to save her son, runs contrary to the years of patience and caring of Jeremiah as well as the caring and not giving up of her patient Joan. The despair of failing in her attempts to successfully, care, protect, and heal these two patients of hers is what she is dealing with in the Land. She has to heal herself, find herself anew, Love herself first, before she can move on to those around her. Hence the going back in Time and dealing with olde issues. Tom is one of those Olde Issues. Its gonna hurt, but she really must get beyond him. Like he said,, don't forget I'm a dead man.

Interesting. I believe this is tied to the central issue of the Last Chronicles. Obviously, her plight to save her son is the engine that propels the story forward. Donaldson has to treat it seriously if he expects us to take it seriously. With that said, I'm not so sure the danger she poses to the Land in order to save her son is misdirection. I think Donaldson means it.

I like how Linden's actions here are the thematic reversal of Covenant’s decision which he made at the beginning of TIW. In Runes, Donaldson says:

“Her situation, and theirs, differed from Covenant’s in one important respect. He had refused the Land’s distant plight for the sake of a child in immediate peril. For Linden and the Masters, the immediate peril was the Land’s: the distant plight, Jeremiah’s.

Good cannot be accomplished by evil means.

She could not use Covenant’s example to explain or excuse her decisions.”

That is very significant. In thematic terms, this is the central crisis Linden faces. She might have many actions to perform during the course of this story, but this is her thematic dilemma. She’s doing the opposite of Covenant. He risked a bad outcome by retaining good "means." She risks achieving a good outcome via evil means. While these might end up being two sides of the same coin, there is certainly a lesson here Donaldson intends for Linden to learn.

[lurch]

Malik..Understood.yet there is an assumption there,, achieving good by doing bad.Thats too easy in my book.,,Its all subjective,, Time makes it so.What is bad and good yesterday, turns out to be good and bad tomorrow,, back and forth,,There need s to be a evolution to a higher reality, the surreal if you will ,and that will be Lindens Truth. I do not see Linden trying to achieve good ends thru " evil " ways..Perhaps , naive or misguided, or causing extreme nail biting by the characters of the Land...but evil?,,No, theres too much compassion in the Last Chrons, to go with " evil ways". The current characters of the Land have been so compromised over Time..None are so pure that they can hold Linden to being Evil...That is what all the Time travel has bore out..Haruchi, Elohim, Insequent, etc etc etc..they all have things in the closet that they would rather not let out for public knowledge. It would tarnish their image, their Illusion. Its not so much that they , over time have been compromised, but over time keep this Illusion about themselves going.

.

[Zarathustra]

Lurch, I do agree that good and evil will necessarily be blurred by this Chronicles. We already see that in Esmer's speech at the beginning. He nearly said exactly that.

But I also think this is important because Donaldson claimed in the GI that he was trying, with this series, to find an enduring solution to the "problem of evil." I think that solution will involve a reinterpretation of good and evil in terms that incorporate them both as relative perspectives within a Truth that lies beyond good and evil.

Also, I think the "problem of evil" is just another way to phrase Caerriol's question to Linden (see my Runes and Staff thread).