A bunch of lunatics

[Edelaith]

I seem to remember a number of *wise* characters across the Land and Earth mentioning the limitations and perils of Power, and the need to employ what Power one has wisely.
So, where does the following come from?

The Haruchai: We suffice to be Supreme Masters of the Land, and dominate it's destiny and all those in it. And Linden Avery, we shall wrest your powers from you if we deem it necessary. We can do anything.

The Elohim: We are equal to everything. Therefore, we will not help the Wildwielder, or advise her, or do anything else to counter Lord Foul's manipulations. We won't even retrieve Jeremiah when the alternative is Linden destroying us all.

The Harrow: I am better than all of you, even any of the Elohim. Better, wiser, and smarter. Nevermind that the Mahdoubt defeated me. And thus I, the Harrow, shall handle the situation and Linden will not be able to resist my manipulations. And, knowing she will enter Andelain where I *cannot* stop her from destroying the Earth, I shall sit back and do nothing nevertheless. Am I not wise?

Roger: When the Earth is destroyed, I shall become a God! I don't know exactly how that will happen, but Lord Foul intimated that it would, and I believe him!

Linden: I will do what I want. I am absolutely right. I do not forgive. Power is the *answer* to my problems (and not the problem) so absolute and ultimate power is the absolute and ultimate answer. What I learned about the laws of this world from my past experiences, I will ignore.

Esmer, Kastenessen, Anile, are mad but have legitimate reasons for it. What excuse do these other beings have?

You would think Stave, Liand, the Mahdoubt, the Ramen, the Ranyhyn, or even Caerroll Wildwood would have tried to intervene in this situation, but all they have done is given Linden the green light.

What hope is there for the Earth when everyone is on the runaway train brigade?
(Liand, Stave, shame on you. Loyalty to a friend does not mean absolute cooperation in creating the great train wreck.)

-

I ask you people: Shouldn't SOMEONE with a sense of responsibility and a degree of power, have stepped in and intervened, before the insanity led to the waking of the Worm?

[Fist and Faith]

Here's hoping the newly-found Giants will add a touch of wisdom to the Last Chrons, eh?

[iQuestor]

maybe Ressurrected Covenant will add some wisdom?

[Edelaith]

I would ask Linden: Who are you, to irresponsibly use power?
I would ask the Harrow: Who are you, to so abuse knowledge?
I would ask Infelice: Why do you refuse to recognize the responsibility of power?
I would ask Roger: Where'd you learn to be a sociopath? Oh, and you actually take Lord Foul at his word?
I would ask the Masters: Why must you take your ancient humiliation at the hands of one wretched Insequent out on the innocent people of the Land?

Berek, Damelon, Loric, Mhoram, Amatin, and the others would never have behaved like this. They understood what responsibility was, and what the word power truly meant.

[Edelaith]

If I were Thomas Covenant at this point, I would simply glare and say:

And you thought *I* was badly behaved?!

[Zarathustra]

Edelaith, I think we're on the same wavelength here. I totally agree. While characters must be given the freedom to make mistakes--otherwise there'd be no tension--the sheer amount of contrived ignorance Donaldson has woven for her is just implausible (see my thoughts in the First Impressions thread).

I was very annoyed with every single issue you listed. It's okay for Infelice to tell Linden not to carry out her plan, but Covenant can't? The Elohim won't step in and stop her when Roger is about to destroy the world, but they'll step in at the end for a completely impotent bit of pleading? The Humbled follow Linden all this way because they don't trust her, but then they only decide to resist her when others are around to stop them?

I'm sure Donaldson has individual explanations for all this stuff. I'm sure it's very clever and complicated. But there's a difference between a mystery and a contrivance. A mystery entices you to find out the answer. A contrivance makes you feel manipulated.

Why does every single action and decision and statement by every single character have to be a tease or misdirection? Why build things up to such an impossible level of difficulty until the only thing that will rescue the good guys is either an unforeseen, extremely improbable chance meeting (the giants, the forestal, the urviles, the waynhim) or a whistle and/or calling their name (the ranyhyn, the sandgorgons, Mahdoubt)???

Every single character is acting in a way that defies explanation, just as you pointed out. All this manipulation of Linden feels more like manipulation of the readers. Instead of being necessary to the plot, it feels like it's there just to keep us turning pages. That would be fine if it weren't so annoying and distracting. I like a good page turner. But this feels fake. It feels like the entire Last Chronicles were written by someone impersonating Donaldson. I want to drink my earthblood and see the bloody truth!

[stormrider]

The Haruchai: We suffice to be Supreme Masters of the Land, and dominate it's destiny and all those in it. And Linden Avery, we shall wrest your powers from you if we deem it necessary. We can do anything.

I really hate what's happened to the Haruchai. It's probably my biggest problem with the Last Chronicles. This decision to control the people of the Land seems ludicrous and kind of... out of character. And if the Humbled wanted to stop Linden, they should have done it before things got out of hand.

The Elohim: We are equal to everything.

Yeah, if they're so wise and prescient, they should have known that Linden was heading down the wrong path. They let Roger and the croyel do whatever they wanted as long as they were with Linden, but they should have thought about the fact that Roger had the power to inspire despair and desperation. Linden was already screwing up, but when the PoC allowed her to see the truth, she just went off the deep end. Her knowledge of her son's plight made her even more inflexible than she was before. How did the Elohim not realize that this was a potential outcome? They're long overdue for an attitude adjustment.

Linden: I will do what I want. I am absolutely right. I do not forgive. Power is the *answer* to my problems

This has always been one of her biggest problems. She was helpless as a child, and as a result, she's always been obsessed with power. She was certainly obsessed with it the last time she was in the land. She spent three books thinking, "But I don't have any power!" She should have learned from Covenant -- power is not always the answer. He certainly didn't defeat Foul with power last time.

Esmer, Kastenessen, Anile, are mad but have legitimate reasons for it. What excuse do these other beings have?

Of course, I don't think Esmer is mad in the traditional sense. But since he can't effectively reconcile the conflicting aspects of his nature, I guess he sort of has an excuse.

If I were Thomas Covenant at this point, I would simply glare and say:

And you thought *I* was badly behaved?!

Absolutely.

[lurch]

..well, this is fascinating,,Labling all these characters Lunatics for their outrageous behavior..behavior of claiming each of themselves , right.
uuuuummm,, the act of saying, posting that you perceive them to be lunatics...is it not the same you do,,??..I mean, yes they are characters, but you bridge that gap by treating them as " people" and I will stay with you on that. But, each claims to be right, and for that, you label them all lunatics. By that action do you not become a " lunatic" as you define them..?? You say they are all wrong, outrageous. So , in your polar opposite, are you not a Lunatic also.?

What I'm gettin at is the Insanity of the Black OR White..Right OR Wrong,,the " OR" existence..Yes, each character is outrageous in their claims and,, its the olde saying..How can anybody be Right, if everybody is Wrong?..Abandon the Polarizied, " Or" perspective on Life. Both extremes are Illusions.,,that which is not..Slight of Hand..
Thats my read of these inflated extreme position characters. And whats worse,,they have no Grounds on which to be making their claims..They are all flawed...So, what is Linden doing..?...admitting her flaws, dealing with them as best she can, learning from her mistakes, trying to rise above all the polarized conflict..and find her self,, Her Truth. Now the important catch..If Her TRUTH sticks,, it becomes Who She IS.. and it NOT up to anybody,,to say.. one is a Lunatic for doing so.

[Edelaith]

Let me say that I'm not criticizing Stephen Donaldson's writing.
I'm criticizing the behavior of some of his *characters.* (Of course, the jury is still out on the why of said behavior of some of them, since we do not know all the facts.)

Something has gone profoundly wrong with Linden Avery. She should not be behaving like this. The Linden who restored the Land would not have behaved like this.
Something happened in our world, during those 10 years, to mess Linden up again ... I missed it, but I think this is the case.

Perhaps Donaldson *meant* Linden as the new Anti-Hero, just as Covenant was the original Anti-Hero.
We saw Covenant rape Lena in the First Chronicles. We see Linden rape (to use her own impressions and words) the Law and reality of the Creator's World, knowing full well her actions are as bad as any rape (in other words, Linden commits premeditated rape on the Law ... which is worse yet, if that is possible.)

What I'd like to know is: what happened to Linden in those 10 years to so corrupt her? What went wrong? I am missing it.
If Linden *is* meant to be the new Anti-Hero, what happened in her world to cause her to lose her way? (Jeremiah alone is not enough reason. It's more than that.)

[Stutty]

What I'd like to know is: what happened to Linden in those 10 years to so corrupt her? What went wrong? I am missing it.
If Linden *is* meant to be the new Anti-Hero, what happened in her world to cause her to lose her way? (Jeremiah alone is not enough reason. It's more than that.)

I completely disagree that "Jeremiah alone is not enough reason." The chances one would take to save their child are extraordinary, and would in my mind include risking destroying the world. That doesn't mean that I would instigate a full scale nuclear war to save my child (guaranteeing the world's end), but I would risk my own health and others' (including innocents) in attempts to save her.

She needs the staff to save Jerry. Time is violated to do that. S'okay with me. I would also.

Her reasoning for resurecting Covenant is similar, though particularly Lindeny (not trusting herself to do the job on her own.)

stutt

[Edelaith]

The Linden Avery who ended the Sunbane, who was healed by Thomas Covenant, would not have done what she has done. My opinion.
She has become the Anti-Heroine, damning the Land and Earth with her actions. She has fallen.

Elena told Covenant to heal Linden, so she would heal the Land. And Covenant did. In the intervening 10 years, Linden has changed for the worst, and this is demonstrated in her actions.
Again, I would ask: What happened to so twist Linden away from the lofty, caring woman she was in White Gold Wielder? If she is fallen, how did she fall?

I just do not agree with the above poster.
A woman might sacrifice an incredible amount for her child, yes, but Linden's actions speak of a blindness (Kevin's Dirt of the Soul ... according to the Harrow, of all people) which was not in the old Linden.

[Seppi2112]

In the second chronicles all Linden ever wanted was power - wanted it so badly that she even possessed TC on occasion; her big struggle in WGW was giving up that urge and letting TC have his freedom. So how is it out of character for her to be using power too much?? She never learned any of the lessons that TC learned - instead she is convinced that TC is the _only_ person able to do anything of value because somehow his lessons don't apply to her, thus leading to her mad decision to raise him from the dead.


The haruchai are no different in the last chronicles than they have ever been. I *hate* that they're the bad guys (or close to it) but thats the point! We're supposed to be uncomfortable when Foul is at work - he is good at perverting people's sense of what is right into what is right for them but wrong for the rest of the world - that's what despite is all about: being so aware of one's own flaws and insufficiencies that you act out of fear and in the interest of SELF preservation.


There are plenty of wise characters in the Land still - the Theomach, the Mahdoubt, Stave (god bless him). Just because people we want to like feel like they're betraying themselves doesn't mean SRD has betrayed US... that's what this entire series is about - self-betrayal.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Linden: I will do what I want. I am absolutely right. I do not forgive. Power is the *answer* to my problems (and not the problem) so absolute and ultimate power is the absolute and ultimate answer. What I learned about the laws of this world from my past experiences, I will ignore.

Yet another one who agrees with me. Where is Wayfriend to knock down this comment?

[lurch]

What has Gone Wrong For Linden in the last 10 years?..Its rite in front of you,,plain as day,, so plain, seems to me, alot have missed it..She Loves a Dead Man..She is giving all her Love,,to non reciprocating beings..In other words,,she hasn't moved on..She hasn't given herself an avenue to explore, and grow..Shes,, kinda Dead herself...Theres no interaction, conflict, therefore growth in her Life,,She stopped growing , exploring her potentials, finding herself,, put it anyway you want,,but she is guilty of Not Living..imho.

Her naievete' in Lost Chrons is the consequence of her not moving on with her LIFE. She doesn't know what to do half the Time, because she literally Doesn't Know,,she has no experience to base judgement on. The whole Hollow scene was prime example of not grasping what is going on around her and therefore making one wrong decision after another.heck, she totally mishandled the Roger situation..She had the rite gut feeling but blew it..Careful,, not stupid, just ignorant, not aware. Its like Stave( ? ) said to Liand when he got to asking questions.." You do not have the knowledge to ask that question.." in other words.. the answer is beyond you. Linden forces them to answer her questions,, eventually. Liand has to shut up.

[Seppi2112]

I agree Lurch. I'm rereading TWL and its funny how when Linden first awakens on Kevin's Watch how she mistakes Covenant for (drumroll...) HER FATHER.

She's been in love with a dead man since her first appearance, and has thus been defined by her personal failures to protect those dead men that she has loved. Jeremiah is just another dead person for her to love and be impotent toward.

[Zarathustra]

Jeremiah is just another dead person for her to love and be impotent toward.

Joan fulfills this role, too. Linden is taking care of people who can't return the favor. Love shouldn't work like that. Love should be reciprocal.

[emotional leper]

Jeremiah is just another dead person for her to love and be impotent toward.

Joan fulfills this role, too. Linden is taking care of people who can't return the favor. Love shouldn't work like that. Love should be reciprocal.

This ain't the garden of eden
There ain't no angels above
And things ain't like they're supposed to be
And this ain't the summer of love

This series is realistic. Bad things happen to good people, for no reason. Horrible things occur. Life isn't all hunky-dorey. Entropy increases -- if things get better, it's a diminished better.

[Zarathustra]

This series is realistic. Bad things happen to good people, for no reason. Horrible things occur. Life isn't all hunky-dorey. Entropy increases -- if things get better, it's a diminished better.

I wasn't saying it should be otherwise in the story. I was just agreeing with Lurch and Seppi. The problem Linden needs to overcome is her unwillingness to move on from the past; her insistence on loving those who can't love her back. I think this is why Mahdoubt cautioned her about love, and why it's going to lead to her making lots of mistakes.

[burgs]

I, too, think that what has happened is that she lived in her world, in love with a man she watched die (Good God - again?!), and caretaker of a child who is wooden and entirely unappreciative (to her sensibilities, that is) of her love, affection, time, etc. In that world, interestingly enough, she set herself up in a position where she was able to exert considerable control over her personal and professional situation, *and* she took care of Joan. Control freak? Yeah.

We all know how well her "project" with Joan turned out. If she could have, I'm sure she would have rent Roger beyond recognition if only for that. I would, and can't wait for that little turd's comeuppance.

Now she's in the Land, has the Staff, Covenant's Ring, and she *should* have power. Yet she doesn't - the fug of Kevin's Dirt (I agree, great word) hinders her, and she refuses to make any serious attempts at using wild magic, at least not until she can get her hands on the krill. And we know how well that turned out.

I'm not surprised by Linden's mistakes, as frustrating that they are. But her mistakes, her being human, is what makes her a great character. Would we rather have that idiot Richard from Goodkind's world? (Sorry if anyone likes that stuff...but talk about fantasy that is beyond speculative...)

I want my Linden intact, imperfect, and ready to make all kinds of mistakes. That's how she should be.

Regarding the others in the book - I have to agree with the OP. Their actions defy logic, and go beyond simple "human mistakes", largely because they're not human and should know better.

[Edelaith]

(sighs)

We all know that every action in this setting has consequences. There is no escaping those consequences, and the consequences tend to be dire.
Ask Elena about consequences. Hile Troy. Even poor Atiarian. And Covenant learned the hard way about running from consequences.

Linden is wielding enormous power, undertaking enormous efforts, and is in for enormous consequences.
Thanks to the choices she has made, I do not see her and Jeremiah in a 'they lived happily ever after' situation.
Instead, I think Linden has doomed herself and Jeremiah to an end that may be very unpleasant or undesired. I don't know what that end will be, but it won't be the kind of end *I* would wish for myself or anyone I cared about.

You just don't get it, Linden Avery. In your mad obsession to find Jeremiah, you may just ensure he is lost forever.

(And you, Roger Covenant ... you need to see the Vizard AWFULLY badly. After all, the Vizard just might give you a brain!)