Linden Avery - Selfish Monster

[Zarathustra]

And Wayfreind, Linden's a made up character.
Comparing her actions to how real people act doesn't quite compare.
Donaldson can make her reasons be as twisted as he wants.

But Wayfriend is using other characters, and what we know about this story, to make his point. I agree with him completely on this issue. She might be blinded by love (as Mahdoubt suggests), which causes her to trust too easily, to be misled, or to perform "good" by "evil" means. But we cannot doubt that she actually loves Jeremiah. The entire edifice of all three Chronicles crumbles if that's not the case.

Her reasons may be shortsighted, but she's doing it to save Jeremiah. Her intentions are pure. Her execution sucks.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Her reasons may be shortsighted, but she's doing it to save Jeremiah. Her intentions are pure. Her execution sucks.

She's actually a better character if she's a selfish monster though.

[tonyz]

Internal motivation and public reputation are not always the same; it's quite possible for someone to do what everyone regards as the virtuous thing for selfish reasons. Only God really knows the difference -- but there is one.

Is Linden trying to save Jeremiah because she wants to save him, or because she wants to have him around so she can salve her own ego by being nice to the poor little puppet? It's an important question, and I'm not sure the answer is entirely clear, even to Linden herself. (Linden is SO non-introspective in the Last Chronicles so far it's sort of frightening; that and the way she keeps not asking the right questions, not using her brain, reacting emotionally rather than logically even given her stated goals...)

In a sense, Linden is reprising Covenant's path through the First Chronicles, only it's "I will save Jeremiah even if it destroys the Land" instead of "I insist that the Land is unreal". The Haruchai are right: saving children is important, but do you save them at the cost of everyone else's children?

Linden has a lot of choices that she isn't exercising, but it's not real clear to me that she can choose to not try and save her son (as she sees it). And I'm not at all sure that she's trying to save him for the right reasons.

It is going to be interesting to see how this develops, though.

[Zarathustra]

Tonyz, you make a lot of good points. However, I wholeheartedly disagree with this:

Is Linden trying to save Jeremiah because she wants to save him, or because she wants to have him around so she can salve her own ego by being nice to the poor little puppet? It's an important question, and I'm not sure the answer is entirely clear, even to Linden herself.

I think the fact that her love is "pure," at least in its selfless intent, is one of the rock-bottom truths of the Last Chronicles. While it may--paradoxically--"salve her own ego," this is no more selfish than being able to respect yourself is selfish, or thinking you're a good person, is selfish. If striving to be a the kind of person who can look herself in the mirror is selfish, then it's impossible to ever respect yourself. And it's impossible to ever love. I don't think Donaldson is saying that.

(Linden is SO non-introspective in the Last Chronicles so far it's sort of frightening; that and the way she keeps not asking the right questions, not using her brain, reacting emotionally rather than logically even given her stated goals...)

I noticed this, too. But a lot of the lack of introspection seems to come from Donaldson withholding from us, rather than Linden not thinking it through. I think she does quite a bit of thinking and planning, but her intentions aren't made explicit to us so it will be a "better" story (more suspenseful, at least). But like you, I'd rather see it as it happens, as it unfolds in her thoughts. I'd like that more than the shock value of withholding her intentions. [**Edit: The way Donaldson handled this in the 2nd Chronicles was so much better. He allowed Covenant to think it through right there in front of us. Covenant told us what he was going to do--by telling himself--but he did it in a way that still hid his intentions until the end. The misdirection leading up to Covenant's act at the end of WGW was astonishing and beautiful as an act of writing, because it was completely honest. The end "haunts" the entire series. I can't say that for this one.]

In a sense, Linden is reprising Covenant's path through the First Chronicles, only it's "I will save Jeremiah even if it destroys the Land" instead of "I insist that the Land is unreal". The Haruchai are right: saving children is important, but do you save them at the cost of everyone else's children?

That is a very interesting point. And if you're right, it actually makes me like the last Chronicles a whole lot more. I wish Donaldson would bring back the unbelief issue. I wish someone would tell her (perhaps Covenant himself?) that she's not treating the Land as real as her son--meld those two issues together. Make her face it. Make her either argue that the Land is an illusion and only Jeremiah's pain matters, or have her openly admit that she won't hesitate to destroy the Land, even though it's real, if it will save her son. Just something to raise the metaphorical stakes. So far, it feels way too literal. But maybe that's my fault for not seeing it deeply enough yet.

BTW, I think that your expectations that a mother acts strictly rational when it comes to the life of her child, and not be heavily slanted toward the emotions and maternal instinct, is asking way too much of Linden. Given her predicament, Donaldson has accurately portrayed a mother's reactions. I'm not sure he has played fair with her--surrounding her with these "lunatics" and withholding key information--but that's his business. At least he has presented a plausible mother. KiGirl hasn't read this series, so she's not registered in this forum. But I'm sure she'd tell you that the "mother-bear" instinct kicks in at a certain point and you don't want to f*ck with her! I've seen it in action. Our kids are the single thing in this world she'll defend absolutely, without fear or hesitation.

[Ur Dead]

Linden is totally blinded when it comes to her son. That may be her point of despair.

The croyel has latched on to him. Linden has had two experiences with croyels.

How did they escape the person/creature the croyels had ahold of?

The croyels are killed along with the hosts.(TOT & WGW)

Maybe it was a good thing she brought back Thomas. He alone may be the factor that stops Linden when they have to kill Jermiah. His condition is very much like Linden's mother. The Mahdoubt warned her. She saw the croyel's hold on her son.

That will be the event a monster is unleashed. Linden totally in despair with the Staff and White Gold at her command. She can become Linden Archbreaker. TC may be the one against all things ending.

[tonyz]

Oh, I agree on the maternal defensive instinct. I'm just saying that Linden is going to fail at achieving what she wants unless she manages to stop acting instinctually.

(This ties into some of SRD's gradual interview comments about the Oath of Peace: Mhoram's discovery was that you needed, not to suppress passion, but to act passionately without letting passion determine your goals. Not an easy balance, and Linden's not even on the tightrope any more, but she'll fail unless she can take herself back there.)

tonyz wrote:
Is Linden trying to save Jeremiah because she wants to save him, or because she wants to have him around so she can salve her own ego by being nice to the poor little puppet? It's an important question, and I'm not sure the answer is entirely clear, even to Linden herself.

I think the fact that her love is "pure," at least in its selfless intent, is one of the rock-bottom truths of the Last Chronicles. While it may--paradoxically--"salve her own ego," this is no more selfish than being able to respect yourself is selfish, or thinking you're a good person, is selfish. If striving to be a the kind of person who can look herself in the mirror is selfish, then it's impossible to ever respect yourself. And it's impossible to ever love. I don't think Donaldson is saying that.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. Linden's initial purpose may be selfless, or it may not be; you say it is, and you may be right; I'm not so sure. The moral question is whether salving the ego is a byproduct or consequence of a good intention, or the goal of the action in the first place. (Possibly a subconscious goal, in Linden's case.) Salving the ego isn't a bad thing unless it's the sole reason why Linden is doing something in the first place. Paradoxically, if you go in wanting to salve your ego, your ego will turn to worms; if you throw away your ego, you get it back with satisfaction.

As far as Jeremiah vs. the Land, I think Linden is pretty clear on "I'm going to risk everything in the Land to save my son if necessary." I don't think she's quite stepped over the line to "I will sacrifice the Land to save my son." (She is, in fact, doing/i] exactly that, but she hasn't done it consciously and willingly. Which may save her in the end, or damn her. There's half the story left, after all.

[Insanity Falls]

Linden Avery - Selfish Monster

No.
And here's why.

Linden is not an "unbeliever".
Her experience of the Land (with Sunbane, Lord Foul, Ravers, and all) first time was terrifyingly, horrifically real, in fact the realest stuff she has ever experienced.

And she is the only person in her world who can understand that the sadistic, murderous cult that killed Covenant is even worse than it appears to be, because there has been a powerful, "paranormal" evil at work in those people. She has met the evil which possessed Joan. She is a physician. She knows that the stuff she saw in Joan was not of medical cause. (And when she is transported to the Land a second time, she really believes Jeremiah is "sent" to the same place too. It ain't a f***ing dream for her!).

When she returns from the Land first time, what does she do?
She does her goddamn best to help these damaged people that's what!

She experienced Ravers as an adult, and she can't help but know that she is in a position to *try* and help these people that no else is, because other people don't know, can't know, the terrifying inside story.

She realizes that the same evil being that caused Joan to thirst for blood, has also "raped" the minds and bodies of other people, (including children).

She probably discovers that one child is more damaged than the others, and she takes him into her care personally.
She understands medically, that Jeremiah is not, essentially, an autistic child, but has been "raped" by a profound evil, and she does her best for him, does her best so that he might, just might, recover his humanity.

With the local psychiatric hospital, she dedicates her life to helping those survivors of the evil cult, that she can. (Not to mention all the other ordinary folk in her life as a doctor.)

That's not selfish.
That's inspirationally selfless!

When she's taken to the Land again, she is scared out of her wits, and is crazy with fear. Crazy with fear, Jenn. Who of us wouldn't be? When people are crazy with fear, they get reckless, it's just human nature.

Pitchwife believed that she, from another world, had a special power native to her. And she is suddenly needed to save an entire world, as well as her son. She is f***ing terrified!

And so she's like a 100mph steamroller trying to right things, and crazy with fears, crazy with the need pressed on her.
She can't afford to fail, but she *CARES*, as much as she dares.
Don't the healings she carried out at Berek's camp have any meaning?

As to the finale of FR:

Spoiler

I would have wanted Covenant too.
The were hoards of knowing people who stood around doing nothing, and made it their business to keep Linden in the dark.
I am pointing my finger at them, if any blame needs to be laid.
(And if the author has his shit together, we'll see that the behaviour of these characters is legitimate, and that all of it make sense! )

[wayfriend]

Is Linden trying to save Jeremiah because she wants to save him, or because she wants to have him around so she can salve her own ego by being nice to the poor little puppet? It's an important question, and I'm not sure the answer is entirely clear, even to Linden herself.

Where is there anything written in this book that suggests so much as an inkling of a hint of a possibility that Linden is "salving her own ego"?

I mean really. It's not there.

I'm just saying that Linden is going to fail at achieving what she wants unless she manages to stop acting instinctually.

Same question. What has Linden done that was "instinctual"? Which I presume you mean here to be the opposite of "thinking it through".

I mean, ever?

Linden is totally blinded when it comes to her son.

I'm completely at a loss here as to where Linden demonstrates anything remotely like "blindness when it comes to her son" in the Final Chronicles.

[tonyz]

The blindness is simply that she never even considers that anything else should take priority over it. (Perfectly understandable, but it's the blind spot through which Foul is breaking free of his prison -- and this is where the reality of the Land should be biting her, because what will Foul do when he is free?)

The problem with acting instinctually, again, is that she never stops to think how to rescue Jeremiah. How is she going to get him away from Foul? Where is he? What good is running off into the mountains going to do? How is the Staff of Law going to help her rescue him? Is there, maybe, something else going on here that she should be suspecting -- such as, perhaps, Foul not just tormenting her son, but using him as the leash to lead Linden down until she breaks the Arch and damns them all?

(And the scene in the transition to the Land, where she sees herself rousing the Worm, she thinks is Foul trying to daunt her and keep her small -- "if you use power you'll do this, stop using power, you can't beat me". She should think. It might, for instance, be Covenant saying "Watch out, you really can break the Arch and destroy it all, be careful how much power you use." Which is, again, the difference between motives for identical acts...)

[Zarathustra]

Is there, maybe, something else going on here that she should be suspecting -- such as, perhaps, Foul not just tormenting her son, but using him as the leash to lead Linden down until she breaks the Arch and damns them all?

Oh, I think you're right about that. But Foul's plan and her plan are two different things. There's no contradiction in Linden wanting to save her son, and Foul using that "pure" motive to entice her into setting him free.

Which is, again, the difference between motives for identical acts...)

Yes, exactly.

[Ur Dead]

I'm completely at a loss here as to where Linden demonstrates anything remotely like "blindness when it comes to her son" in the Final Chronicles.

She is looking for her son.
She knows Foul has him.
She has dedicated herself to raise him for 10 years and that is no small feat.
She wants him back and out of harms way.
Her love for her son is fanaticial. (I can't blame anybody who has a child who isn't)
The Mahdoubt has warned her about love being blind. Many people took it as her love for TC, but it is Jeremiah.
She knows he is in the clutches of a croyel.
There isn't an example where a croyel was removed from the host. There were the two examples in the last Chronicles where the croyel was killed along with the host.
Now remember what Findail said about croyels. The longer you are bonded with one, the futher you slip into darkness.(This is one part where Findail was telling the truth, even if he was appointed)
It is because Foul has her son, she will not forgive. More so since seeing Jeremiah in the state he was in under Melenkurion Skyweir.
She carries a crush toy car that was her son's. Now she has the only piece that is linking her to her son.
It is possible that she "feels" or "knows" that her son is lost and she is fighting off the dispair so she can keep going. (a faint tint of hope)
None of the powers (Harrow, Esmer or the Elohim) will come out and say what she doesn't want to hear. Jeremiah is lost.

That is the blindness I see.

[wayfriend]

The blindness is simply that she never even considers that anything else should take priority over it.

But she does consider it. Many times. She chooses in full knowledge. And, as I keep pointing out, she's finding lots of ways to help the Land even though that's not her first priority. There is nothing blind here.

The problem with acting instinctually, again, is that she never stops to think how to rescue Jeremiah.

Again, she stops and thinks many times. She just doesn't yet know the answer. But she is approaching the answer in approximations: get enough power to fight Foul. Get Covenant's help. Then maybe she can Find Foul. Then maybe she can find Roger. Nothing "instinctual" here. Just a lot of not knowing the answers, and trying anyway, and getting there in steps.

Do you think she should sit on a bench until she figures it all out?

Jeremiah is lost. That is the blindness I see.

Again ... should she give up because Jeremiah MIGHT BE lost? Should she quit trying to rescue her son while there are chances left?

If you're argument is that she should know that there is no longer any chance, then you'd have to show me how that is so. I haven't read anything that makes it unequivicable that Jeremiah's rescue is a foregone failure.

[Seareach]

And Wayfreind, Linden's a made up character.
Comparing her actions to how real people act doesn't quite compare.

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?!?!?!?

[wayfriend]

And Wayfreind, Linden's a made up character.
Comparing her actions to how real people act doesn't quite compare.

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?!?!?!?

I guess it's only okay if you want to criticise.

[Ur Dead]

And Wayfreind, Linden's a made up character.
Comparing her actions to how real people act doesn't quite compare.

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?!?!?!?

I guess it's only okay if you want to criticise.

I've read about real people who makes Linden look like a saint.
Or at least Mother Thersa.

[Dawngreeter]

Do you think she should sit on a bench until she figures it all out?

Most definitely at the end of FR.

[Zarathustra]

And Wayfreind, Linden's a made up character.
Comparing her actions to how real people act doesn't quite compare.

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?!?!?!?

I guess it's only okay if you want to criticise.

Well, to be fair, you can compare characters to real people for more reasons than criticism. Thinking about how we would act in their place, or how their actions mirror universal traits we all share, makes the reading experience something more than escapist entertainment. It relates it to our lives. That's not criticism. That's seeing the "deeper meaning" of a story.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Isn't that what we're supposed to do?!?!?!?

I guess it's only okay if you want to criticise.

Well, to be fair, you can compare characters to real people for more reasons than criticism. Thinking about how we would act in their place, or how their actions mirror universal traits we all share, makes the reading experience something more than escapist entertainment. It relates it to our lives. That's not criticism. That's seeing the "deeper meaning" of a story.

I think he was referring to how much I like to bash Linden.
I was just trying to point out though that many people are trying to understand her and predict her based of real life comparisons but I think that SRD will come up with things that we never thought of.

[wayfriend]

I guess it's only okay if you want to criticise.

Well, to be fair, you can compare characters to real people for more reasons than criticism. Thinking about how we would act in their place, or how their actions mirror universal traits we all share, makes the reading experience something more than escapist entertainment. It relates it to our lives. That's not criticism. That's seeing the "deeper meaning" of a story.

I think he was referring to how much I like to bash Linden.
I was just trying to point out though that many people are trying to understand her and predict her based of real life comparisons but I think that SRD will come up with things that we never predicted.

Except you implied that only the people who like Linden's character are wasting their time in this way. That using "real life comparisons" for bash purposes is perfectly valid. To wit, you didn't post that reply to CMJ's original post, or to any of the posts supporting it, but brought it up only when someone made a counter-argument.

Let's face it, HLT: Linden's great, you got nuthin.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Except you implied that only the people who like Linden's character are wasting their time in this way. That using "real life comparisons" for bash purposes is perfectly valid. To wit, you didn't post that reply to CMJ's original post, or to any of the posts supporting it, but brought it up only when someone made a counter-argument.

You are WAY WAY too sensitive!
(But still a good egg.)