The Seven Words

[Borillar]

I have a question: are the Seven Words part of Kevin's Lore? IIRC, they're described that way in the Appendix, and I could swear there was a song in the First Chronicles somewhere about "Seven Wards and Seven Words". But if so, there are two problems with that:

1) Their existence precedes Kevin by quite a bit, as evidenced by the Theomach's introduction of them to Berek;

2) They continue to work long after we're told that the lore of Kevin is a "dead letter" in the Land.

[wayfriend]

The Seven Words exist in their own right. However, if you have lore, you can use those words more effectively. (Anyone can draw with a pencil, but if you study and practice you can make better pictures.)

So I don't see a contradiction: Kevin's Lore was about knowing the words and using the Words, and passing that knowledge on: it was not the Words themselves, as they (as you say) exist in and of themselves.

And it's fair to say that the lore is not ONLY Kevin's lore. It was Berek's, and all the Old Lords. I think that saying they are Kevin's Lore reflects that he was the pinacle of that lore when it was enshrined in the Wards and passed to the new Lords. He was the one who most mastered it. And he was the one who ensured it lived on.

[FAP]

Much of Kevin's lore probably predates him. "Kevin's lore" in the earlier series is just the name for the packaged units Kevin put together for the New Lords to learn from not separate lore that Kevin developed.

Kevin's lore, the lore of the new lords, and rede of the clave are not "dead letters". They would still work if anyone knew of them. The Masters have ensured that no one does though.

[callback]

Much of Kevin's lore probably predates him. "Kevin's lore" in the earlier series is just the name for the packaged units Kevin put together for the New Lords to learn from not separate lore that Kevin developed.

Kevin's lore, the lore of the new lords, and rede of the clave are not "dead letters". They would still work if anyone knew of them. The Masters have ensured that no one does though.

There is lore and there is lore. As words of the language of creation, I would think that the Seven Words go back to something basic and would always remain valid, just like the white gold taps into the Arch of Time, which will always be there while creation exists.

On the other hand, we were told that much of Kevin's lore was rendered useless by Foul's corruption of Earthpower. Presumably, the Rede is also useless since the ending of Sunbane and the imposition of law.

[Borillar]

I know Kevin's Lore is said to have "no meaning under the Sunbane" by one of the Clave members (Asakkari I think), and while they may be mistaken, SRD himself says:

"Now, of course (I mean after "The Second Chronicles") *all* of Kevin's lore has effectively ceased to exist. (Linden's new Staff of Law doesn't even have *runes,* for crying out loud.) And without that lore to give it substance, the seventh word--if anyone chanced to discover it--would be meaningless.

At another time, SRD says:

I can say that Kevin's Lore is in what we might politely call a parlous state.

These statements might merely mean that there's no one around who understands such lore, but the statement by Asakkari sounds more definitive than that.

For what it's worth, one thing I *never* understood is why the Clave preserved all of the old periapts and Wards and such in the Aumbrie, instead of just destroying them (given that they were led by a Raver).

[wayfriend]

By preserving them, they can demonstrate their uselessness in the current age. This goes towards the generation of a sentiment that there is nothing of worth in the past of the Land, that they were all incompetents and losers, enhancing the sense that the current situation is condign.

[Ur Dead]

The reason's the old lore was useless was because no one remembered on how to use it. There was another lore they used to bring results under the Sunbane. That Lore could be considered as Lore taught by the Raver.

Raver's Lore? Lore of blood?(mortal or creature) But the Demondin spawn still use their respective lore(s) in some respects, the same way. It might also be the basis of all Lore. Earthpower is concentrated within the Earthblood. Which happens to be red in color but it also may be based on power given off by all organic and inorganic objects. Very similair on how the Wild Magic is given off.

In TWL, Covenant used Loric's Krill and six of the seven words to hurt the Lurker.

[Aleksandr]

Re: These statements might merely mean that there's no one around who understands such lore, but the statement by Asakkari sounds more definitive than that.

We should be wary of trusting any member of the Clave to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. They were either deceived like Memla, or in on the Raver's game and so not to be trusted.
However, the Sunbane corrupted the Earthpower and this probably rendered most of Kevin's lore useless, much as having a serious computer virus can make a lot of your software unusable. But once the Sunbane was gone, Sunder and Hollian, figuring things out themselves, were able to do some things, and someone (we aren't told who) also created First Woodhelven since it does not sound like a natural growth.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

One of the things I find so powerful is that there's an implication that even though Kevin KNEW these words at a much more profound level than explained here, he still could not resist despair and the RoD.

** I don't think it's an accident that the missing word was the one that means "make no use of Earthpower which does not serve or preserve the munificence of creation." Kevin may have had to "forget" that word in order to be able to invoke the Ritual. I had chills when I read this part...

Incredible insight. Did Kevin make the Wards IN his despair? Was the seventh word never in any of them? (I don't think the wards correspond to the words.)

or is it, relation to this --

The sixth, harad, may be understood as a stricture against selfishness, tyranny, malice, or other forms of despair. It binds the speaker to make no use of Earthpower which does not serve or preserve the munificence of creation.

Indeed, the protection against despair was the one thing Mhoram was lacking at that time: in a way, when he abandons Kevin's Lore in Lord Mhoram's Victory he actually masters the one piece of knowledge he had no knowledge of.

I myself don't think Mhoram was lacking protection againt despair. He jut couldn't get around the link between power and drawing it from negative emotions, but then he used it to protect it.

I think the new Lords came up with the Oath of Peace to fill the needed void left by the missing word. And their oath was a stronger Word than harad.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I know Kevin's Lore is said to have "no meaning under the Sunbane" by one of the Clave members (Asakkari I think), and while they may be mistaken, SRD himself says:

"Now, of course (I mean after "The Second Chronicles") *all* of Kevin's lore has effectively ceased to exist. (Linden's new Staff of Law doesn't even have *runes,* for crying out loud.) And without that lore to give it substance, the seventh word--if anyone chanced to discover it--would be meaningless.

At another time, SRD says:

I can say that Kevin's Lore is in what we might politely call a parlous state.

These statements might merely mean that there's no one around who understands such lore, but the statement by Asakkari sounds more definitive than that.

For what it's worth, one thing I *never* understood is why the Clave preserved all of the old periapts and Wards and such in the Aumbrie, instead of just destroying them (given that they were led by a Raver).

Be careful with what you glean from those interviews. It is obvious SRD is dangling something there.

Linden's staff doesn't even have runes, for crying out loud.

Well, it does NOW, doesn't it?

The words work.

The words aren't about the Law,either. They are not Law. They are the languauge of the earth itself.

[Zarathustra]

I think the new Lords came up with the Oath of Peace to fill the needed void left by the missing word.

That's an interesting insight. Send that in to the GI to get SRD's response!

[Edit: on second thought, wasn't the RoD enough motivation for them to create the Oath of Peace?]

[wayfriend]

[Edit: on second thought, wasn't the RoD enough motivation for them to create the Oath of Peace?]

Absolutely.

On the other hand, if the Ritual was due to Kevin's disregard for the missing word, then the Oath would be a result of that, several steps removed.

The Ritual was in opposition to harad, and the Oath was in opposition to the Ritual: therefore, harad and the Oath are similar.

[Atrium]

I enjoyed the Theomachs explanation of the seven words, and the whole Berek episode. Finally we get some more insight into at least one of the minor mysteries of the land.

I think its pretty obious that Lindens problem is that she powerwise does not really have any lore. She carries around something paralleling two huge power batteries, the staff and the white ring, but has problems putting them to specific uses because she really lacks the lore that the old Lords possessed, or any lore for that matter. The intuitive guidance of health sense serves her somewhat. But apparently weaker figuers like Roger and the croyel can be more effective, because they possess lore.

Maybe she should have sat down and studied Kevins wards instead of setting out for Andelain? Chances are that if the seven words still function, and Orcrest can still be put to its traditional uses, that the lore of the Lords can also still be effective?

Of course, problem here is that she neither has that much time to study, nor the knowledge needed to interpret the old language. But in a time travel story time is not necessarily an issue, and neither is knowledge lost to time.

[Relayer]

[Edit: on second thought, wasn't the RoD enough motivation for them to create the Oath of Peace?]

Absolutely.

On the other hand, if the Ritual was due to Kevin's disregard for the missing word, then the Oath would be a result of that, several steps removed.

The Ritual was in opposition to harad, and the Oath was in opposition to the Ritual: therefore, harad and the Oath are similar.

Yes. Also remember that when the Oath was created, the Lords had knowledge of at most 5 words. Duroc was discovered between LFB and TIW.

The intuitive guidance of health sense serves her somewhat. But apparently weaker figuers like Roger and the croyel can be more effective, because they possess lore.

They also possess knowledge, as opposed to Linden constantly having to guess because no one tells her anything

[Phantasm]

We can all get new t-shirts with all 7 words on them now

[wayfriend]

You may be onto something with this lore angle.

But I think Roger is in the same boat as Linden lore-wise. Massive power, no lore, no time/chance to acquire it. He was given a token of power - eloskurjhand - and then was loosed into the world to accomplish things.

Perhaps this is setting up for Linden and Roger to foil each other in some way. Two figures, each with massive power, each without lore. Roger goes wrong, Linden learns from it, goes right.

[emotional leper]

No, I think Roger knows far more than Linden does. I think Kassy and Foul et al, have been telling him things, for years.

[Zarathustra]

No, I think Roger knows far more than Linden does. I think Kassy and Foul et al, have been telling him things, for years.

You know, something that's always bugged me, how does Roger know so much about the stakes here? It's almost as if he's been going to this Land, too. Just like his father. In fact, who are we to assume that Covenant and Linden were the only ones to go there lately (i.e. since Mhoram's time)? Hile Troy went there. Maybe his son went there long ago, at Jeremiah's age. And J's certainly been there a while. Since childhood. Roger could have, too. And this would have put him there the same time as Covenant . . . whoa. Are we going to see trips to the past where Roger was behind the scenes like a 2nd Michael J. Fox in Back To the Future 2?

[sherlock_525]

If that happens I think my head is going to do a "scanners" thing and blow up

[emotional leper]

If that happens I think my head is going to do a "scanners" thing and blow up

Make sure to have a webcam set up and broadcasting first.

Or atleast a video camera recording.