Moderators: dlbpharmd, Seareach
LF has failed twice. In a way I'm saying that their "weird" (double entendre intended) logic commands them toward the path of least resistance.dlbpharmd wrote:If that were the case, then the ur-viles simply need to keep serving Lord Foul (his desires would also lead to their destruction.)
Why not? Such action doesn't seem to fall within the bounds of their peculiar Weird of self-loathing, does it? It certainly isn't a very concept-based idea, and SRD is a very conceptual writer. The power of his writing is seen not only in the concepts he uses but in how they bring the plot to fruition. Their actions in the present Chronicles mesh well with Esmer's conceptually ambiguous nature. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody truly understands the Ur-viles, except for SRD himself, and he ain't telling. The most he will ever say is something along the lines of, "The reason I brought in the Ur-viles was because I needed them." Their self-loathing is a plot device. So whatever conceptual reason anyone may think up to explain why they don't commit suicide by Harrow is good enough for me.Ur Dead wrote:The could just go an attack the Harrow. He would get rid of them. and do it alot faster.
Yes, but "reinterpreted their weird" in what way? They reinterpreted self-loathing in what way? That could go along with my idea that they've given up on Foul because Linden's incompetence more fully serves their self-loathing Weird.Wayfriend wrote:Isn't it possible that the ur-viles have changed? That they're reinterpreted their weird... that maybe their helping Linden for the same reason as the Ranyhyn and everyone else ...
Didn't the Ur-viles create manacles somewhere in the second Chronicles? Who were they for anyway?Ur Dead wrote:As Esmer said, the urviles have created manacles.
Now I don't know if it means as in shackles(binding devices) or if it's the next step they are progressing to. Offspring that gives birth and subject to the law.
That quote wouldn't apply to Lord Foul, so even if true there are exceptions to the rule.earthbrah wrote:Esmer also said something about not everything that is evil must have been that way from the beginning, nor must it remain that way until the end.
Your theory might hold water, Worm; then again, it might not.
That's cool. Here's another question for you then. Who or what created the Viles?earthbrah wrote:I agree that Esmer's comment can't really be applied to Lord Foul. However, the comment was made either in conjunction or connection with the Viles or Demondim. Since the urviles are their spawn, I don't think they can be excepted from his comment.
They may be totally amoral. But my take is that we don't know enough yet to judge them. (Or maybe we do. I like this thread; you're forcing me to think about this more deeply...)
Harsh. Self-loathing, as you say, is not the core of their essence, it is an expression of it's interpretation. The Waynhim, as has been made clear MANY times, start from the same place and have a different interpretation, that does not involve self-loathing, or destruction of natural life, or service to Foul. There is nothing at all that indicates the ur-viles could not make the same choice had they chosen to. So why can they not change their mind, and take the same path as the Waynhim, or a similar one?TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes, but "reinterpreted their weird" in what way? They reinterpreted self-loathing in what way?
Also, we must consider that the Waynhim that accompany Linden seem to approve of the ur-vile's actions. Their opinion is the best yardstick that we have to use on the ur-viles.In the Gradual Interview wrote:It seems fairly obvious the the ur-viles had reinterpreted their Weird and decided to turn against Lord Foul. Why did they do so? Ah, therein lies a tale, without which "The Last Chronicles" might not be posssible.
(11/12/2004)
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes, but "reinterpreted their weird" in what way? They reinterpreted self-loathing in what way?
I don't see anything harsh, it's just a question I have. I was hoping someone would mention the Waynhim, since their commingling with Ur-viles ostensively as allies is a mystery. It makes more sense that Ur-viles have joined with Waynhim than vice versa.Wayfriend wrote:Harsh. Self-loathing, as you say, is not the core of their essence, it is an expression of it's interpretation. The Waynhim, as has been made clear MANY times, start from the same place and have a different interpretation, that does not involve self-loathing, or destruction of natural life, or service to Foul. There is nothing at all that indicates the ur-viles could not make the same choice had they chosen to. So why can they not change their mind, and take the same path as the Waynhim, or a similar one?
In the Gradual Interview wrote:It seems fairly obvious the the ur-viles had reinterpreted their Weird and decided to turn against Lord Foul. Why did they do so? Ah, therein lies a tale, without which "The Last Chronicles" might not be posssible.
(11/12/2004)
Unfortunately, SRD didn't answer anything there as far as turning against Foul being equivalent to turning toward the good.Wayfriend wrote:Also, we must consider that the Waynhim that accompany Linden seem to approve of the ur-vile's actions. Their opinion is the best yardstick that we have to use on the ur-viles.
The implication being that whatever happened wasn't as simple as the ur-viles "just" deciding that serving Foul didn't serve them. After reading FR, it seems that it'll have something to do with another encounter w/ an Insequent or something that caused them to change (although the event was likely before the 2nd Chronicles, or they wouldn't have created Vain). We may be in for another huge revelation on the order of Brinn/Theomach/Vizard/HaruchaiIn the Gradual Interview wrote:It seems fairly obvious the the ur-viles had reinterpreted their Weird and decided to turn against Lord Foul. Why did they do so? Ah, therein lies a tale, without which "The Last Chronicles" might not be posssible.
(11/12/2004)
