OK, OK, SRD, we get it, we get it, let's move on, please...

[The Dreaming]

Uh, does nobody remember the whole Sunder/Hollian thing in TWL? Gag me... just as bad, and just as necessary to the storyline (sadly).

Hrm, TWL was a lot shorter Sunder was also a much cooler character than most anyone introduced in Runes.

[kevinswatch]

Sunder was also a much cooler character than most anyone introduced in Runes.

Now there's a true statement.-jay

[Xar]

With Liand, it's just the opposite: Linden is leading him through a Land he never knew. So he has no role whatsoever--except to tag along and ogle Pahni.

Heh, yeah, I agree. From what I've seen so far, Sunder and Hollian had far more depth to their characters than Liand and Pahni. There's not much of a comparison.

I mean, that scene with Sunder and Hollian in Andelain in WGW? Powerful stuff. I don't think I'd care a whiff if Liand or Pahni kicked the bucket.

Why even have them around if they add nothing to the story and if SRD can not think of anything else to write about them except for this trite dribble?-jay

I think what Malik is suggesting is that Liand and Pahni have NOTHING to do during the quest - he's not saying that SRD is not developing them, he's rather saying that differently from Sunder and Hollian who had skills and knowledge that made them useful to TC and Linden, Liand and Pahni are pretty much like children in regards to what they know of the Land and what help they can offer, with Haruchai, Giants, Staff of Law, wild magic and what-have-you in the group. In such august company, these two people - both young and innocent in their own way - really cannot compete, and what can they do that others cannot do better? As a result, they are drawn together both because they have nothing else to occupy their minds with AND because they probably recognize being kindred to each other ("hey, you're doing absolutely nothing too! I feel your pain!").

[amanibhavam]

Yes but we can already see that Liand is developing into a serious contender with his growing abilities with the orcrest.

[variol son]

With Liand, it's just the opposite: Linden is leading him through a Land he never knew. So he has no role whatsoever--except to tag along and ogle Pahni.

Heh, yeah, I agree. From what I've seen so far, Sunder and Hollian had far more depth to their characters than Liand and Pahni. There's not much of a comparison.

I mean, that scene with Sunder and Hollian in Andelain in WGW? Powerful stuff. I don't think I'd care a whiff if Liand or Pahni kicked the bucket.

You mean the scene that happened halfway through the last book of the previous series?

I understand why we all do it, but comparing the unfinished Last Chronicles to the finished (and well dissected) First and Second Chronicles strikes me as being a little unfair in some cases. How can Liand be as awesome at the end of Fatal Revenant as Sunder and Hollian were mid way through White Gold Weilder? I think it would be more accurate to compare him to Sunder and Hollian at the end of The Wounded Land.

[Zarathustra]

Variol Son, you make a good argument. On some issues, I may have been too hard on FR, given that we're just halfway through this series. My judging it in terms which require the context of all 4 books will be necessarily premature.

However, at the same time, the books have to succeed as an on-going form of entertainment, and not merely successful in retrospect once it's all over. There are many levels of "completion." One might extend your argument to claim that the original Chronicles can't be judged because the entire three Chronicle epic isn't yet complete. (Sure, my comparison isn't exact. But where it differs, it differs only in degree.)

In this particular case, we're talking about the relationship as something cooked up to fill a void that was already obvious. I'm not comparing Liand now to Sunder at the end of WGW. But even taking your comparison, Sunder was much more developed by the end of TWL than Liand is after two books. From the very start, Sunder's character was rendered in a string of tragic epiphanies. By the time a relationship developed with Hollian, he was already a rich character we cared about. (And Hollian to a lesser extent, but still orders of magnitude greater than Pahni.) Therefore, the fact that there was very little character development for L&P thus far, makes their romance feel like something written to fill the void. Something tacked on just to keep having sentences with their names included on the page. We never needed an excuse to mention Sunder and Hollian.

Xar, I'm actually being a little more critical than you described me. I do think it's a development problem, deriving from author neglect. However, I am glad that they are finally getting some attention by the end of FR. Liand is starting to get interesting for the first time. Though, it's discouraging that it takes yet another magical object to make a character interesting. Sure, this is fantasy. But I read Donaldson in any genre specifically because of the depth and significance of his characters. That's what I've always felt set him apart, so that's what sticks out to me when it's missing.

[wayfriend]

The one thing that struck me about Liand and Pahni when I first read it is that Linden's chances dried up.

C'mon -- who didn't think after reading Runes that Liand wanted to get Linden to a waymeet for a weekend if he could?

Maybe this is SRD's way of letting us know that Linden won't be playing with Liand's sun stones after all.

[Matthias]

A little off topic, but I still have a problem with the love interest between TC and Linden.

[High Lord Tolkien]

The one thing that struck me about Liand and Pahni when I first read it is that Linden's chances dried up.

C'mon -- who didn't think after reading Runes that Liand wanted to get Linden to a waymeet for a weekend if he could?

I thought Linden was dried up too.

But seriously, I always thought that Liand had more of a Mother/hero worship thing for Linden rather than.......wait.
You know, as I write this and think about where SRD has taken us before...maybe we're both right!

[Seppi2112]

Having just finished TOT again, the TC and Linden thing does make sense. Linden loves TC because he had the potential to end up just like her father, but he was powerful and intelligent and successful instead (daddy 2.0). TC loves Linden because she was flawed and dangerous and had no reason to trust him, and yet ultimately did; for a man who has been completely alone and outcast for over a decade, thats pretty powerful stuff.

[dlbpharmd]

Good post.

[wayfriend]

... Except for the part which implies that Linden loved TC as a father-surrogate. That's just imagining your own preconceptions onto someone else.

[variol son]

Variol Son, you make a good argument. On some issues, I may have been too hard on FR, given that we're just halfway through this series. My judging it in terms which require the context of all 4 books will be necessarily premature.

However, at the same time, the books have to succeed as an on-going form of entertainment, and not merely successful in retrospect once it's all over. There are many levels of "completion." One might extend your argument to claim that the original Chronicles can't be judged because the entire three Chronicle epic isn't yet complete. (Sure, my comparison isn't exact. But where it differs, it differs only in degree.)

In this particular case, we're talking about the relationship as something cooked up to fill a void that was already obvious. I'm not comparing Liand now to Sunder at the end of WGW. But even taking your comparison, Sunder was much more developed by the end of TWL than Liand is after two books. From the very start, Sunder's character was rendered in a string of tragic epiphanies. By the time a relationship developed with Hollian, he was already a rich character we cared about. (And Hollian to a lesser extent, but still orders of magnitude greater than Pahni.) Therefore, the fact that there was very little character development for L&P thus far, makes their romance feel like something written to fill the void. Something tacked on just to keep having sentences with their names included on the page. We never needed an excuse to mention Sunder and Hollian.

I definitely get what you're saying Malick, and despite the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed Fatal Revenant, when Linden returned to Revelstone from the past it did cross my mind that we might be a little over-supplied with supporting characters.

It seems to me that these characters grow not so much individually as in pairs. Liand grows in relation to Stave and Pahni, and Linden as well I guess (i.e., it is his relationship with that person that develops and changes, thus allowing Liand to develop and change), Mahrtiir grows in relation to Stave and Bhapa, and Bhapa in relation to him.

Pahni is therefore an unknown quantity as her relationships with other members of the group, such as Mahrtiir, Bhapa and Linden, haven't been explored yet. She strikes me as being a little like Mistweave as he was all about Linden just as Pahni is all about Liand.

[Edelaith]

I think Liand's love for Pahni is the reason for his slow transformation into an effective character, as well as a more real person to the reader.

What I'd like to know, is how he will ever keep up with Pahni, though. Her Ramen service has gifted her with supernatural speed, stealth, endurance, and other capabilities.
Heh. Nevermind. He is working wonders of his own. They will compliment each other.

All Pahni has done is a little scouting? LOL.
I'd like to see even an Army Ranger run along at 5 mph through dense, hilly, and completely unknown forest, finding an open trail for giants to follow along without hindrance, while simultaneously looking for enemies in waiting and/or hiding, for hour after hour after hour.
Also, Pahni charged the Demondim in Runes of the Earth. Her weapon? The Ramen Cord. Now, if that's not courage and fidelity to make someone special, what is?
And Pahni was among those who ambushed the wolves in Runes of the Earth. Again, I'd like to see the Army Ranger (minus his guns) rise up with only a few comrades (also without firearms) and take on hundreds of gigantic wolves who are in a blood fury. But Pahni, who must be all of - what? - 15, did so. Did so, and emerged unscathed and victorious.

[kevinswatch]

She may be an Army Ranger, but she's still boring as dirt. Heh.

And please, let's keep the Linden bashing out of this thread. There are many other threads for that.

Let's keep on the topic of Pahni bashing. Hehe.

-jay

[Seppi2112]

... Except for the part which implies that Linden loved TC as a father-surrogate. That's just imagining your own preconceptions onto someone else.

SRD states the father similarities so many times in TWL and TOT its ridiculous. No preconceptions here, just a careful reading

[Relayer]

I agree that Pahni kicks some serious butt. Any Ramen does. But I really have no sense of who she is, what matters to her (not counting that she loves Liand and serves the Ranyhyn).

We have a good sense of Mahrtiir, he's always had things to say about situations (and from the time he appears in Runes, we also had Linden's impressions of him). We've started to learn a little about Bhapa, that he doesn't feel worthy of being a Manethrall. Before we met them, we had numerous conversations w/ Hami... but Pahni is basically a silhouette. And Linden really doesn't have any impressions of her other than that she seems too young for the burdens that have been placed on her. We haven't been shown any depth to her character yet.

[The Dreaming]

Maybe this is SRD's way of letting us know that Linden won't be playing with Liand's sun stones after all.

An actual, real LoL. Im not just saying it, I really laughed.

[wayfriend]

SRD states the father similarities so many times in TWL and TOT its ridiculous. No preconceptions here, just a careful reading

... followed by a logical leap of metaphoric proportions to conclude that she was incapable of loving a man except as a father replacement. (My wife is an excellent figure skater; if someone walked up to me and told me I had deep psychological issues such that I could only love a figure skater, based on that alone, I would say that they were nuts. You're doing the same thing.)

[Variol Farseer]

SRD states the father similarities so many times in TWL and TOT its ridiculous. No preconceptions here, just a careful reading

... followed by a logical leap of metaphoric proportions to conclude that she was incapable of loving a man except as a father replacement.

Sorry, that's you making the leap. Linden happened to fall for TC because he struck her as a man who found a way to live where her father failed and died. SRD is quite explicit about that. That doesn't in any way mean that she could not love a man who did not possess that particular quality; it just means that this dynamic was driving this particular relationship. Don't assume too much.