Plot hole? ***SPOILERS*** of course

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I certainly hope not...

But then again, Stave would be infinitely better than Linden.

I have my own issues with the Haruchai. They don't talk much, but when they do talk, it's too much. For example, when a simple "I don't know" would suffice in answer to one of Linden's zillions of questions, the Haruchai go into great detail on exactly why they don't know. I liked it better back in the first books when they used to just shrug. After a couple hundred pages of long-winded explanations from everybody in FR I was getting pretty tired of reading the book.

[Auleliel]

After a couple hundred pages of long-winded explanations from everybody in FR I was getting pretty tired of reading the book.

I agree on this point.
But I'd rather deal with the explanations than with LA's unending internal debates.

[wayfriend]

Is there an example of one of Linden's "unending internal debates" you'd care to point out? Or have we all conceded that throwing out unsubstantiated character assassinations of Linden is just going to be par for the course forever more?

Then I want to reconcile this comment with all the comments that she is reckless and doesn't think anything through.

[ParanoiA]

But there is no indication that the Theomach is a time traveller!

Just because he is Insequent doesn't mean he can travel through time. The only one who could do that was the Mahdoubt as far as we know.

I apologize if I've missed any posts on this one, but I didn't see any replies on the other pages.

But, "moving between instants" suggests time travel does it not? Otherwise, he's just moving really fast. Fast enough: and you've got time travel again.

But why does he need to be a time traveler to protect against time travelers? If he can move between instants, then I would think any spot on the land, during his lifetime, is instantly available to him and thus could stop any damaging changes. And then consider that we know the Theomach existed from before the time of the Lords until his defeat at the one tree - and now co-exists with an Elohim within a Haruchai.

So, during all of that time, any attempt at time travel during his time could end with the Theomach in your face. (Although that may not be true once he becomes the guardian of the one tree)

Of course, then you have to wonder about traveling to a time before the Theomach - hell, before a single living being was actually "created". But we don't know anything about the land then, and Stave's story about their initial encounter with the Insequent could be a 'seed' to make a case that the Insequent used to rule the land solely, thereby stopping any attempts at time travel before the Theomach as well.

[wayfriend]

But there is no indication that the Theomach is a time traveller!

But, "moving between instants" suggests time travel does it not?

Yes, I meant to retract that remark, and I probably did, in another thread.

I have since remembered that the Mahdoubt was pretty clear in saying that the Theomach had time travel powers.

However, it would not surprise me if such powers are not quite the same, or as generally versatile, as Esmer's and the Elohim.

[Fist and Faith]

I have my own issues with the Haruchai. They don't talk much, but when they do talk, it's too much. For example, when a simple "I don't know" would suffice in answer to one of Linden's zillions of questions, the Haruchai go into great detail on exactly why they don't know. I liked it better back in the first books when they used to just shrug. After a couple hundred pages of long-winded explanations from everybody in FR I was getting pretty tired of reading the book.

Makes me glad we can't hear their telepathy! Buncha jabber-jaws on the inside! (Although it wasn't like that in GILDEN-FIRE.)

Is there an example of one of Linden's "unending internal debates" you'd care to point out? Or have we all conceded that throwing out unsubstantiated character assassinations of Linden is just going to be par for the course forever more?

Not being obnoxious, or joking, or anything like that. Seriously, just open the book to a random page several times. It's, like, everywhere.

Then I want to reconcile this comment with all the comments that she is reckless and doesn't think anything through.

That's at least one thing I've never accused her of.

[wayfriend]

Is there an example of one of Linden's "unending internal debates" you'd care to point out? Or have we all conceded that throwing out unsubstantiated character assassinations of Linden is just going to be par for the course forever more?

Not being obnoxious, or joking, or anything like that. Seriously, just open the book to a random page several times. It's, like, everywhere.

Well, then I gotta ask, what do you think an "unending internal debate" looks like?

If it looks like "thinking", then I concede that the story includes much of Linden's thinking. Is that what you find distasteful?

An "unending internal debate", to me, would be an indication that there is some large issue which Linden is indecisive about, and that she first makes a case (with herself) one way, and then later another way, and then later back the first way. No clear decision ever emerges, just a continuous argument with oneself.

There's no such thing in the Final Chronicles. Despite your comment in which you claim not to be glib and then are glib, I cannot find anything like this.

[Fist and Faith]

I'll quote and edit myself...

The problem is... Well, the 1st Chrons was an incredible exploration of Covenant's psyche. I've never read anything like it! Such an in-depth look at someone; watching him change; going from hating him to loving him, but feeling that it was done legitimately, not just "He's bad. OK, now he's good." What an incredible thing! But we couldn't do that again in the 2nd Chrons, right? What would be the point? So we have Linden. Covenant is strong and true, but she's really messed up. But, like Covenant in the 1st, she truly learns and grows. Fighting off possession by a Raver is an extraordinary thing!!! Absolutely boggles the mind! But, again, it seems legitimate. Ok, now we are in the Final Chrons. Obviously, just as we couldn't explore Covenant again in the 2nd, we can't explore Linden again in the Final. But wait... Looks like that's exactly what we're doing. Paragraphs and paragraphs at a time dedicated to her inner struggles. No, they're not the same inner struggles. She's not screwed up about her parents now. She's got new problems that we hear about unceasingly. Enough already. I just don't feel the need to go through it with her again.

Actually, I don't feel the need to do that at all. There's enough going on in the Land and its earth. Let's see the huge power-plays, and forget about the angst and all that. Covenant's thoughts, and the growth of the character they lead to, were one of my favorite parts of the 1st. The same could be said for Linden in the 2nd. Are her thoughts anybody's favorite aspects of the Final Chrons? Or was it things like learning the Seven Words, seeing Caerroil Wildwood fight, learning about Jeremy's abilities, seeing the amazing things the Insequent could do, etc?

And no, I'm not being glib. Linden's angst, and her worrying, and her deciding to keep this or that bit of information from those who trust her the most, can be found everywhere.

[wayfriend]

Linden's angst, and her worrying, and her deciding to keep this or that bit of information from those who trust her the most, can be found everywhere.

Sure. But that's not an "unending internal debate".

Worrying? Who can blame her? Lord Foul has her son. The destruction of the Land lurks around every corner.

Angst? Dread and anxiety? Ditto.

Withholding information? While I know this happened once, and I bet some could convince me it happened two or even three times, I really don't see pages and pages devoted to it.

So I'm still at a loss where this is coming from.

The Second Chronicles did indeed explore Covenant's dilemmas from his viewpoint. While the center was shared with Linden, it was indeed shared. Covenant's problems were different, and an order of magnitude more complicated. But they were there nevertheless. The can/cannot of his venom. The dismissal of the Elohim. The broken foundation of his love for Linden. His recognition of the need of self-sacrifice. His refusal to admit defeat. These fill the pages as much as Linden's issues did. I would refuse to say that the Second Chronicles were only about Linden's internal struggle, or mostly.

The Final Chronicles I fully expect to be the same. Linden and Covenant still have issues, but they are on the next level now. If they haven't come across yet, well, I blame Donaldson's new writing style.

[drew]

Hey--who is Damelon's mother?

Reading the First Chronicles, I always assumed that Berek either ended up hooking up with the queen..or he had Damelon YEARS into his Lordship...hooking up with another (female) Lord.

But apparantly, Dammy was already born when Berek and the king started fighting, so who IS his mom I wonder?

[danlo]

I.....bet she looked alot like Joan, HAHAHA...wait a minute, then, is Damelon the anti-Rog?

[Rigel]

The same could be said for Linden in the 2nd. Are her thoughts anybody's favorite aspects of the Final Chrons? Or was it things like learning the Seven Words, seeing Caerroil Wildwood fight, learning about Jeremy's abilities, seeing the amazing things the Insequent could do, etc?

Her thoughts are the only things that make the books worth reading.

Everything else you mentioned is reminiscent of the "bigger sword" syndrome of many RPGs. Sure, we could see CW fight... so what? What does that really tell us about him, or about ourselves? And how is that any better than seeing the Haruchai fight? Or the Lords?

And Jeremiah has magic. So does every other character in the series - even Liand seems to have found his niche. In fact, I defy you to name me a fantasy land that *isn't* filled with magic.

These things are superficially fun, but ultimately unsatisfying. I don't care how strong the Sandgorgons are, or whether or not SRD can come up with a monster more horrifying than the the Skurj. What matters to me are the emotions of the characters, and how they touch me.

That's always been the best part of SRD's work, and what sets it apart from the worthless trash that plagues the fantasy genre. In fact, that's what sets it apart from the worthless trash that plagues *any* genre he attempts.

[Rigel]

The same could be said for Linden in the 2nd. Are her thoughts anybody's favorite aspects of the Final Chrons? Or was it things like learning the Seven Words, seeing Caerroil Wildwood fight, learning about Jeremy's abilities, seeing the amazing things the Insequent could do, etc?

Her thoughts are the only things that make the books worth reading.

Everything else you mentioned is reminiscent of the "bigger sword" syndrome of many RPGs. Sure, we could see CW fight... so what? What does that really tell us about him, or about ourselves? And how is that any better than seeing the Haruchai fight? Or the Lords?

And Jeremiah has magic. So does every other character in the series - even Liand seems to have found his niche. In fact, I defy you to name me a fantasy land that *isn't* filled with magic.

These things are superficially fun, but ultimately unsatisfying. I don't care how strong the Sandgorgons are, or whether or not SRD can come up with a monster more horrifying than the the Skurj. What matters to me are the emotions of the characters, and how they touch me.

That's always been the best part of SRD's work, and what sets it apart from the worthless trash that plagues the fantasy genre. In fact, that's what sets it apart from the worthless trash that plagues *any* genre he attempts.

[Relayer]

Good post.
Good post.

[Emrys]

Good to see that the Linden-debating has continued all these years, set off anew by the Last Chrons. FWIW, I like her. I think she's turned out pretty badass and respectable. And I'm not gonna lie, TC's puling in the first Chrons could get old. I'll be happy with whichever protagonist we go with from here on out.

[sweetbread]

Back to the original topic and my two cents.....




I personally think that the Arch of Time CANNOT, and I repeat, CANNOT, be destroyed by altering events within the past. It was stated that "Only with Wild Magic can the Arch of Time be destroyed, or defended." Therefore, I don't think that it's possible. I also do believe that it was the Mahdoubt's intent to scare off Linden from doing anything that might change the the History of the Land. Why? Well, when the history changes, the present also changes. Lord Foul, Roger, and the Insequent are counting on an element of predictability within Time.

If the present time changes too much, well, that just screws everyone's plans up, now doesn't it? That's why Roger/Jeremiah never did anything to screw up the history; it was pointless. Likewise, it's the reason that Theo and Mah were so hellbent on preserving the history; because defending Time is impossible if you don't know what's goign on....

[rainmound]

I.....bet she looked alot like Joan, HAHAHA...wait a minute, then, is Damelon the anti-Rog?

First posting!

Well, one thing seems obvious - this serious is about parents and their sons. We have the child of Linden, the son of Thomas (and Joan), the son of Berek, the son of Sunder and Hollian... Who is supposed to be the Hope of the Land (TM) (which the more it gets repeated the more it sounds like some sort of diaper... Lands-End Depends?) there's something going on with that whole son thing that Donaldson hasn't revealed to us yet. I'm content to wait. But I admit to liking Linden Avery, if only because, except for the Mahdoubt, she's the only strong female character in the novel so far. It can't be all about men grunting and punting, you know?

Perhaps the Insequent are the children of the Elohim... or the other way around.

[dlbpharmd]

Welcome, rainmound!

[Joey2250]

Still, I was rather disappointed that something as puissant as the Power of Command gave her so little of the truth. She could have gotten a lot more truth out of it. The location of Jeremiah. Foul's plan. etc.

It would have been cool if she had had more of a vision there. Something more like Covenant's soothtell. And frankly she deserved it.

I think the Power of Command is partially ruled also by the desires of the speaker... that is, when Linden asked to see the truth, she was thinking about Covenant and Jeremiah, so she saw the truth there - but not about, say, Foul's or Kastenessen's plans. Had she been a little less focused on her companions, or more focused on the whole situation, she might have received a vision like the soothtell.

I think she did suffer having this backfire on her. Because of this culmination and fight she was turned into a darker Linden. It wasn't until now that even the Elohim decided to try and sway her.


Also I have a question about the Worm of the world's ending. How does this fit in with the Creator? I always believed that the Creator created the Earth and The Land on it, and that is why he was trying to protect it. Now however we are told that the Earth was formed from the skin of this Worm. In which case he created the universe and this Worm, but not directly the Earth. So why does he care about the Earth and The Land so much? His creation the Worm will still live when it awakens.

Now that also makes me think, why does Foul always directly work in The Land? There are obviously more places he could go around and do bad things in but he only concerns himself with The Land. Strange.....

[AjK]

First posting!

Welcome to the Watch, rainmound!