FR First Impression

[amanibhavam]

Cail wrote:

Maybe I'm forgetting something from ROTE, but Stave mentions how the na-Mhoram's grim felt when describing being in a fall. Stave has no knowledge of the grim.

The Haruchai have a racial memory due to their telepathy, so they basically know all relevant things that have ever happened to their kindred.

[Cail]

True, but he hadn't experienced it, and it was odd that he'd reference it when describing the fall.

Sort of like comparing his pain when the Masters kicked his butt to the whipping that Bannor gave Korik. He had no personal knowledge of it.

[A Gunslinger]

True, but he hadn't experienced it, and it was odd that he'd reference it when describing the fall.

Sort of like comparing his pain when the Masters kicked his butt to the whipping that Bannor gave Korik. He had no personal knowledge of it.

I think you might underestimate the nature of their sharing of (as King would put it) Khef. I had always understood it that when they access memories they are experiencing them rather than reading them as a page off a book.

[amanibhavam]

Revelation: the Haruchai are Amnion!!

[wayfriend]

It's fair enough to say that, like in the Second Chronicles, the Haruchai seem to have been boosted with new powers in the Final Chronicles.

[lfex]

The Haruchai have a racial memory due to their telepathy, so they basically know all relevant things that have ever happened to their kindred.

So why ever they needed "old tellers" in previous Chronicles?

[Cail]

The Haruchai have a racial memory due to their telepathy, so they basically know all relevant things that have ever happened to their kindred.

So why ever they needed "old tellers" in previous Chronicles?

Exactly. It's either a flub or a tremendous cheat.

[SoulBiter]

The "flaw" in the doom provides that the called sandgorgon must come, kill you, and return.

It does NOT provide the sandgorgon's ability to hear you when you call from anywhere. That's a natural ability of a sandgorgon. Just as the Doom does not give the sandgorgons the ability to cross the whole world in a few minutes ... that, too, is a natural ability of the sandgorgons.

So in WGW, the Doom exists, but Nom is no longer compelled by it's flaw, he "slipped it's bonds", heh. But when TC called him, he heard, because he's a sandgorgon, nothing to do with the flaw in the Doom. He came because he respected TC, nothing to do with the Doom. And he came fast, because he's a sandgorgon, nothing to do with the Doom.

Ditto in FR. The fact that the Doom no longer exists is evidence that the Doom did not provide the ability to hear the call.

Why do I believe that sandgorgons can naturally hear you call them from the far side of the world? For one, the Ranyhyn also can (they can also hear you ahead in time, too, but they are far away when they do).

Also -- and this is just me -- there is something suspicious about sandgorgons having names. Consider that they have no physical apparatus to communicate, nor did they have any ability to use telepathy until they consumed the Raver frags. So how could they have names? Their names, I conclude, are not ordinary names. ( This is something that I am exploring in a story I am writing ... )

Im still not buying into this although there is nothing in the books to say that it couldnt be contrived in this fashion. And had I read your post before reading The One Tree, I might have bought into it. But to me its still stretching a bit to say, Oh thats a natural ability. They can hear their name being called from across leagues. So they can hear their name but not hear anything else? Or do they hear everything being said everywhere all the time and they filter it out.

I just cant imagine that the Sandgorgons (prior to The One Tree) going around all day having to listen and ignore people calling their name and deciding whether to answer or not.

As I re-read all that had to do with Nom and the Sandgorgons it was implied (maybe only because I read it that way) that the answering to their name was a part of Sandgorgons doom. Also it wasnt Nom that answered it was some general Sandgorgons, that had consumed part of the ravers parts, that happened to be in the area. So... in my opinion, it was a stretch for them to answer the summons.

[emotional leper]

The Haruchai have a racial memory due to their telepathy, so they basically know all relevant things that have ever happened to their kindred.

So why ever they needed "old tellers" in previous Chronicles?

Exactly. It's either a flub or a tremendous cheat.

Perhaps with the passage of time they have learned to strengthen their natural talent to the point where they no longer need 'old tellers.'

Or maybe there has been a change in Haruchai society to where 'old tellers' are no longer revered as they were. Perhaps a general move to value everyone's voice equally. *shrug*

Or maybe there have been no 'old tellers' in the same mode as Bannor and the others lately because, since Covenant and Linden last left the land, nothing really extraordinary has happened.

[Stutty]

-snip-
Instead the story is like the nightmarish painting "Guernica" by Picasso where you can tell something is really, really wrong but it's hard to figure out what.

www.artinthepicture.com/artists/Pablo_P ... rnica.jpeg

Actually I think that would make an outstanding cover for the full boxed set if it ever comes out. Look at it; you can see Mt. Thunder, Kresh, could be a Sunbane in there, all jumbled up by Caesure. Perfect!

stutt

[Cail]

So why ever they needed "old tellers" in previous Chronicles?

Exactly. It's either a flub or a tremendous cheat.

Perhaps with the passage of time they have learned to strengthen their natural talent to the point where they no longer need 'old tellers.'

Or maybe there has been a change in Haruchai society to where 'old tellers' are no longer revered as they were. Perhaps a general move to value everyone's voice equally. *shrug*

Or maybe there have been no 'old tellers' in the same mode as Bannor and the others lately because, since Covenant and Linden last left the land, nothing really extraordinary has happened.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

SRD made a boo-boo.

Oh, and I'm up somewhere around page 250 now (the end of the first book), and it's gotten better......But teleporting?.......ugh.

[wayfriend]

I just cant imagine that the Sandgorgons (prior to The One Tree) going around all day having to listen and ignore people calling their name and deciding whether to answer or not.

If this was science fiction, it would be a valid complaint. But it's fantasy. Do we worry that the Ranyhyn "go around all day having to listen and ignore people" whistling? It's magic ... it just works.

As I re-read all that had to do with Nom and the Sandgorgons it was implied (maybe only because I read it that way) that the answering to their name was a part of Sandgorgons doom.

"The flaw I chose is this, that any Sand-gorgon will be released if its name is spoken. It will be free while it discovers the one who spoke its name. Then it must slay the speaker and return to its Doom."

Yes, they are compelled to answer if their name is called. But there is nothing that grants them an ability to hear their name called if they otherwise could not hear it.

Also it wasnt Nom that answered it was some general Sandgorgons, that had consumed part of the ravers parts, that happened to be in the area.

We don't know WHO heard the call for Nom. But, since they all have been changed by fragments of Ravers, they are now beings who can communicate and make concerted efforts. It would be contrived indeed to assume that Nom could have heard the call and then was unable to ask some other sandgorgons to something in response.

[SoulBiter]

I just cant imagine that the Sandgorgons (prior to The One Tree) going around all day having to listen and ignore people calling their name and deciding whether to answer or not.

If this was science fiction, it would be a valid complaint. But it's fantasy. Do we worry that the Ranyhyn "go around all day having to listen and ignore people" whistling? It's magic ... it just works.

As I re-read all that had to do with Nom and the Sandgorgons it was implied (maybe only because I read it that way) that the answering to their name was a part of Sandgorgons doom.

"The flaw I chose is this, that any Sand-gorgon will be released if its name is spoken. It will be free while it discovers the one who spoke its name. Then it must slay the speaker and return to its Doom."

Yes, they are compelled to answer if their name is called. But there is nothing that grants them an ability to hear their name called if they otherwise could not hear it.

Also it wasnt Nom that answered it was some general Sandgorgons, that had consumed part of the ravers parts, that happened to be in the area.

We don't know WHO heard the call for Nom. But, since they all have been changed by fragments of Ravers, they are now beings who can communicate and make concerted efforts. It would be contrived indeed to assume that Nom could have heard the call and then was unable to ask some other sandgorgons to something in response.

But all of this is saying get out your "I believe' pin and accept that this is what happened. You have plausable explanations but they fly in the face of my original belief of what Sandgorgons doom was originally. Im not saying you are wrong because what you are explaining is really the only plausable explanation but to me SRD used a 'loophole' of non-explaination from the One Tree and used it to bring Sandgorgons into FR.

[Zarathustra]

-snip-
Instead the story is like the nightmarish painting "Guernica" by Picasso where you can tell something is really, really wrong but it's hard to figure out what.

www.artinthepicture.com/artists/Pablo_P ... rnica.jpeg

Actually I think that would make an outstanding cover for the full boxed set if it ever comes out. Look at it; you can see Mt. Thunder, Kresh, could be a Sunbane in there, all jumbled up by Caesure. Perfect!

stutt

I, too, thought this was an amazing observation. It made me do some research into the painting, which is the first time I've seen or heard of it. What a fantastic insight! Aleksandr, did you study this in a class, or are you just an armchair art expert?

[wayfriend]

But all of this is saying get out your "I believe' pin and accept that this is what happened.

But .... *splutter* ... if you don't want to wear your 'I believe' pin .... ?!?!?! ... ...

[Auleliel]

Revelation: the Haruchai are Amnion!!

That would be interesting...

[SoulBiter]

But all of this is saying get out your "I believe' pin and accept that this is what happened.

But .... *splutter* ... if you don't want to wear your 'I believe' pin .... ?!?!?! ... ...

[Aleksandr]

Re: Exactly. It's either a flub or a tremendous cheat.

Maybe the old tellers are the ones who store the memories and pass them on to the young? They do their telling psychically, not verbally?

[Cail]

I'd say that's a certain possibility, but even still, it just seems odd that Stave would compare the relative pain/sensation of two things when he hadn't directly experienced one of them.

When he could have said, "It didn't hurt as much as getting my ass handed to me by my fellow Masters".

[Seppi2112]

SRD used a 'loophole' of non-explaination from the One Tree and used it to bring Sandgorgons into FR.

Imagine trying to write a 3000 story arc withOUT using loopholes...