Covenant, the Arch, and Book 9

[The na-Mhoram]

I've been rereading the entire series, and I just got passed Covenant's destruction of the Clave's Banefire, and Covenant's transformation into the 'alloy' of white gold and venom.

After, while he and Linden are discussing what happened, TC tells us basically that now he IS the Arch of Time and he IS the White Gold. Anyway, we know what happens after, he confronts Foul, Foul burns the venom out of him, TC dies and takes his place in or as the Arch.

Now my question is, now that TC's returned to the living, what's changed? And what does this implicate for the Arch? If TC is still the Arch of Time, does that mean if he dies the Arch will collapse? Is he still 'Super' Covenant? Linden stated (after the fusion) that she didn't believe Covenant could ever get sick again--and that was when he was still made partly of Venom.

Will he need his ring to wield Wild Magic? Or better, will he use power? He swore he would never use power again on his way to confront the Despire in Mt. Thunder.

Is he mortal? As the Guardian of Time, does he control the Law of Time or just maintain its integrity? And what would happen if he encountered a caesure? Also, I'm wondering how much he knows. Logically, he should know EVERYTHING. Where Jeremiah is, what Foul's planning, how to get rid of Kevin's Dirt...so if he does know these things, is he able to share? Or would that 'unearned knowledge' work against Linden and the party?

And finally--is this part of Foul's plot, or do you think he was just as surprised as everyone else at what Linden's done? Or maybe the better question is, now that Covenant's back, how does this change Foul's plans, or how can he use it to his advantage?

[wayfriend]

After, while he and Linden are discussing what happened, TC tells us basically that now he IS the Arch of Time and he IS the White Gold.

That's not precisely accurate. Covenant says, "In a sense, I've become the keystone of the Arch. Or I will be — if I let what I am loose. If I ever try to use power."

The question is, did he let what he is loose?

Anyway, we know what happens after, he confronts Foul, Foul burns the venom out of him, TC dies and takes his place in or as the Arch.

And possibly other things. Read that chapter and tell me how you interpret the passages that describe Foul pouring "himself" into his power, and then TC taking that power into "his self". Put two and two together - what might that imply?

Now my question is, now that TC's returned to the living, what's changed?

That's the million dollar question.

Or better, will he use power? He swore he would never use power again on his way to confront the Despire in Mt. Thunder.

I believe we can count on his promise. And on his admonition, which I quoted above. And we can count on the fact that when he gave his ring, he GAVE it. He doesn't want it back.

Is he mortal?

I think that the answer there is 'yes'.

Also, I'm wondering how much he knows. Logically, he should know EVERYTHING.

I don't think we would have a story if he did know everything. The Final Cs are heavilly based on people not knowing things.

There's no hint that Hollian knew everything when she was ressurrected, and she should, too.

I think that the act of mortification somehow removes the access to the arcane knowledge that the Dead possess. Covenant may remember knowing, but he won't know.

And finally--is this part of Foul's plot, or do you think he was just as surprised as everyone else at what Linden's done?

Oh, it is assuredly part of Foul's plot. When has anything ever NOT been part of Foul's plot. The man can PLOT!

I have a suspicion, which I hinted at above, that Foul is now so "close" to Covenant that Foul was brought to Life when Covenant was.

[The na-Mhoram]

When I say he should know everything, I was more referring to his roll as Time, or the Arch. So he should know past, present, future. Unlike Hollian, who was--in the end--just a mere mortal. Covenant became much more when he died.

The Final Cs are heavilly based on people not knowing things.

True, but there are also a lot of people hanging around that DO know things, and have to be super cryptic about it

I have a suspicion, which I hinted at above, that Foul is now so "close" to Covenant that Foul was brought to Life when Covenant was.

As in corporeal life? Interesting. Very interesting. The whole Covenant=Foul and vice versa has always been a little ambiguous to me. How literally are we supposed to take it? Are they opposite sides of the same coin or is it more internal? I'll have to come back to this more when I've finished WGW. But that would definitley be exciting if you're right.

[Ur Dead]

Maybe the title of the first book says it all about Thomas Covenant.

Lord Fouls Bane.

[wayfriend]

"Lord Foul's Bane" just means "Lord Foul's Nemesis", or "Lord Foul's Enemy".

The na-Mhoram, the Dead, at least as we had seen them in Andelain, are able to access knowledge because they are Dead. Which they cannot talk about. It doesn't have to do with being one with the Arch. I think that this access must be lost when resurrection occurs.

- - - - - - -

I was reminded in another thread about this quote from WA Senior's book, and heartened.

Ok. In a hundred words or less. In the First Chronicles, Thomas Covenant faces Lord Foul and defeats him. In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant surrenders to Lord Foul. In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul. Following the psychological paradigm through, what happens at the point that you become your own other self is that you become whole, and the universe is made new.

And, as I said [more better] in another thread: in the first Chronicles, Covenant "was" Foul in a literary sense, in the Second in a spiritual sense, and in the third in a real sense, completing the progression. Which was hinted at over and over in the Second Chronicles every time Covenant noted that he and Foul "were one".

And I think the passage from WGW makes it clear that, before WGW ends, Covenant and Foul are already the same in that real and physical sense. Foul threw himself at the Arch, and Covenant caught and absorbed him.

So, in the intervening years, Foul re-constituted himself as part of Covenant. Does this mean he is also part of the Time Warden? Does this mean he is also part of the Arch? We will find out.

But I think this theory explains the fact that Covenant can somehow possess people like Anele. This was something that he could not, as well as would not, do before. So his Foul side is showing there.

Which points to a man who sometimes acts as Covenant would, and sometimes acts as Foul would. Very, very dangerous.

So now, he has been resurrected. He crossed the barrier from being Dead to being alive. If my theory is correct, he brought Foul along with him when he made the crossing.

[The na-Mhoram]

Wow, so in FR we got back a Covenant that was actually Roger--and in the next one we're getting a Covenant that's actually Foul?

But you didn't answer my question, is Foul now corporeal? Or do you believe he's just sort of persona that Covenant will periodically exhibit (like possessing Anele)?

If it's just an internal thing, I don't really see much difference. Covenant's always said that he had the Despiser inside him, that he was a part of him and vice versa--and he actually did say that they're opposite sides of the same coin.

Another question, how does this duality affect Foul? It should work both ways, don't you think? If Covenant has inside him the capacity for hatred and self despite, which is the part of him that is Lord Foul, what part of Covenant rubs off on Foul?

[amanibhavam]

So maybe Covenant is yet to face yet another, even bigger sacrifice: somehow to rip himself (i.e. Foul) out off the Land so that it can be free of himself, leaving it to Linden and/or the Creator to rebuild it.

[wayfriend]

But you didn't answer my question, is Foul now corporeal? Or do you believe he's just sort of persona that Covenant will periodically exhibit (like possessing Anele)?

I'm sure Covenant is now alive. I am confident he is mortal. I expect that Foul is now mortal, and alive in a different way than he once was alive. He is probably even MORE imprisoned than he used to be.

And I also believe this is all exactly how Foul planned it to happen.

If it's just an internal thing, I don't really see much difference. Covenant's always said that he had the Despiser inside him, that he was a part of him and vice versa--and he actually did say that they're opposite sides of the same coin.

Yes. But I believe there is a logical progression that ends with their being literally "one" rather than just figuratively.

Another question, how does this duality affect Foul? It should work both ways, don't you think? If Covenant has inside him the capacity for hatred and self despite, which is the part of him that is Lord Foul, what part of Covenant rubs off on Foul?

True. Perhaps this is why Foul has not acted overtly this time, but only whispered a word here and there.

So maybe Covenant is yet to face yet another, even bigger sacrifice: somehow to rip himself (i.e. Foul) out off the Land so that it can be free of himself, leaving it to Linden and/or the Creator to rebuild it.

I don't expect that. In an old interview, Donaldson said that, in the Final Cs, victory will be achieved through "acceptance". I can only think that this means Covenant accepts Foul as part of himself.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I don't expect that. In an old interview, Donaldson said that, in the Final Cs, victory will be achieved through "acceptance". I can only think that this means Covenant accepts Foul as part of himself.

Which just cements my whole opinion that the Land and everything that we know has happened will turn out to be just a dream.
Or some fantastic variation of a type of dream.

How can it be otherwise?

If the Landverse is real in of itself then how could an ordinary man who comes from "outside" just coincidently be that realities equivalent (or close enough) of God/Creater?
Which he has to be if Foul is part of himself.
Foul is supposed to be the Creator's brother or at the least a part of the Creator.
So TC just *happens* to be part of that cosmic trinity?

I know that the Creator choose TC but still... ah well, we'll find out son enough.
(anyone have a time machine to cheat?)

[wayfriend]

If the Landverse is real in of itself then how could an ordinary man who comes from "outside" just coincidently be that realities equivalent (or close enough) of God/Creater?
Which he has to be if Foul is part of himself.
Foul is supposed to be the Creator's brother or at the least a part of the Creator.
So TC just *happens* to be part of that cosmic trinity?

No, but he *becomes* it.

In the first Cs, he's an anybody. His similarity to Foul is only in his character - he has a huge capacity to be evil in the Land. The challenge is to choose to not be.

In the second C, he has fought Foul for so long and so personally that they become brothers in spirit. The challenge is to recognize that and use that rather than fight that.

In the third Cs, through the magic of the Banefire, and through Covenant's sacrificial confrontation with Foul, he has transcended mortality and incorporated Foul, through a somewhat mechanical process. Now they are one in a more real sense.

So ... it's not entirely based on a cosmic "You are the Chosen One" kind of a process, like Belgariad et al erk yeck. It's developed quite logically.

[wayfriend]

More stuff.

In the first, Covenant opposes his--dare I say it?--Dark Side and wins (an expensive--and temporary--victory). In the second, he surrenders to his Dark Side, and thereby gains the power to contain it (another expensive--and temporary--victory). "The Last Chronicles" will explore this theme further as Covenant's quest to become whole continues.

(04/27/2004)

Covenant "contains" his "Dark Side". Hint hint.

Soon he will "become whole". Through "acceptance". What can that mean, except that he and Foul will continue the process of merging to the logical extreme?

[amanibhavam]

More stuff.

In the first, Covenant opposes his--dare I say it?--Dark Side and wins (an expensive--and temporary--victory). In the second, he surrenders to his Dark Side, and thereby gains the power to contain it (another expensive--and temporary--victory). "The Last Chronicles" will explore this theme further as Covenant's quest to become whole continues.

(04/27/2004)

Covenant "contains" his "Dark Side". Hint hint.

Soon he will "become whole". Through "acceptance". What can that mean, except that he and Foul will continue the process of merging to the logical extreme?

True. But how that will be achieved and what Covenant will do with all that acceptance - for that I still trust SRD's capability to surprise us.

A lot here seem to have discarded the Last chronicles already as crap. I still think it's great despite its shortcomings.

[Relayer]

Some good posts here!

Perhaps TC/Foul will be sort of like Esmer... in that he can't help w/out harming, and his betrayals also contain benefits.

[wayfriend]

That's an interesting idea ... that Esmer is a foil or parallel to TC.

[lfex]

"Lord Foul's Bane" just means "Lord Foul's Nemesis", or "Lord Foul's Enemy".

Well, in my country it was translated as Lord Foul's Venom - i. e. that it is Lord Foul himself who is the bane. I have always assumed this is correct interpretation, but it looks like it is wrong.

[The na-Mhoram]

So with Foul and TC so intimatley entwinned, do you think we're heading for a Highlander, "There can be only one!" sort of showdown, with the winner holding sway over all life in the Land for eternity?

Personally, I thought TC had already accepted the fact that he and Foul were one. I mean, isn't that how he was able to defeat him in the second Chrons? So are we talking about TC's acceptance, or Linden's? What acceptance is she going to have to make? The death of her son? Perhaps some roll in the Land like a Forestal? More likely something I can't even fathom at this time. Or maybe even...killing TC???

[ninjaboy]

Well TC IS going to have to die.. again.. And if Foul is Alive (in the same way as Covenant) then he also can be killed.. But the thing that I'm most concerned about is whether Covenant can help preserve the Arch of Time now he's alive again.. Or is that only something he can do when he's not.. alive..
But wouldn't Foul revert to his former self if he was killed anyway? I REALLY don't think Foul is going to be any part of the ressurected Covenant - not any more than he ever was..
To me the biggest danger was that Foul would take posession of Covenant when he was resurected like he did when Elena bought back Kevin..
Or now that he has been ressurrected there is more chance of him doing that.. But Foul still wouldn't have posession of the White Gold because it has to be given..
And I am not convinced the Grey Slayer (I think that's a better name than Foul anyway) planned for Linded to resurrect him either.. I think he'll delight in it and try take the honours for plotting it, but I think he was as suprisd as everyone.. Well everyone except the Ranyhyn.

[blindherviolet]

my wonder is, why does it have to be 3 years between each book?

2? ok i understand 2. but 3?? i'm going to be well into my 30s by the time i know how it ends. i don't even want to think about it. it's going to drive me crazy. i've seen those books on my father's shelf since i was a small child. they've been in my life...forever.

bah.

[Ur Dead]

my wonder is, why does it have to be 3 years between each book?

2? ok i understand 2. but 3?? i'm going to be well into my 30s by the time i know how it ends. i don't even want to think about it. it's going to drive me crazy. i've seen those books on my father's shelf since i was a small child. they've been in my life...forever.

bah.

Some of us read his first book while in our mid twenties..
So I will be pushing 60 when the last book comes out.

Bah.. humbug!!!

[emotional leper]

my wonder is, why does it have to be 3 years between each book?

2? ok i understand 2. but 3?? i'm going to be well into my 30s by the time i know how it ends. i don't even want to think about it. it's going to drive me crazy. i've seen those books on my father's shelf since i was a small child. they've been in my life...forever.

bah.

Some of us read his first book while in our mid twenties..
So I will be pushing 60 when the last book comes out.

Bah.. humbug!!!

Mod +5, Damn Kids!

But seriously, atleast TCTC has a definite end, and isn't going to go on for book after book after book like some series I could name that I will not live to see the end of.