What if we had the Land's gift of sight here in our world?

[CovenantJr]

And I was being very tongue-in-cheek about the Last Chrons comment.

So was I

[Aleksandr]

Something to consider: beware of equating disease with evil. One of TC's first healthsense perceptions in LFB was of a blighted tree. He did not see that as evil the way he did the murder of the Waynhim soon afterwards. Linden could see both Covenant's leprosy and his venom. The latter horrified her, the former did not. And when she healed the Sunbane, she did not eradicate sickness and rot; she reduced them to their proper place and purpose. In our world we would certainly see a lot of sickness and injury, but how much evil would we see? Some to be sure-- "All who live contain some darkness" as the Elohim said. But nothing concentrated like Lord Foul and the Ravers asn the Sunbane.

[lurch]

Consider the possibility,, that we DO have the ability to See with Healthsense. Its just a matter off opening up the mind to the the view. It can be easy as..look at a dog..are its ears up.. tail wagging? When you talk to the dog does it cock its head?,,Shiney coat?,,etc..Understanding what you are seeing,, what is being "communicated" to you is a matter of how perceptive your " senses" are..A plant.. droopy?..dull, loosing its leaves? or up right, following the sun, etc...Okay, there are some very easy ways of seeing with Healthsense,,just a beginning of what may be possible. You have to start somewhere.

AFTER you get started,, then maybe you can come to conclusions about bigger issues,,but " seeing" begins with the person. Start there and " see" how it goes.

[The Laughing Man]

[emotional leper]

There's observation of the minutiae, and then there's a supernatural ability to sense rightness. They're not quite the same.

[The Laughing Man]

perception is as perception does.

[emotional leper]

perception is as perception does.

Yes, but me bombarding something with X-Rays is not the same as me passively observing it with my eyes by detecting photons which bounce off of it. There is a huge difference between Healthsense as Donaldson showed it in the land and the Petit Perception of the Bene Gesserit from Dune. Healthsense is a supernatural ability. The Petit Perception is merely what happens when you're highly trained to notice every little detail.

If you had the Flu and I looked at you with Health Sense, I'd be able to tell you were sick. If you had the Flu and I looked at you and used only the Petit Perception, I would be able to assume with a high probability that you are sick. However, I would not be able to be sure of it. You could be faking it via drugs and training. The difference is, with Health Sense, I would know for a fact what was wrong with you. With the Petit Perception, I could be fairly sure, almost positive that something was wrong with you, and maybe have a good idea of what it might be, but I could never be positively sure of anything.

[The Laughing Man]

you are indeed correct, but as lurch and I were agreeing, you have to start somewhere and build on that. we are perceivers, thats all we do, and there are many ways to do it. some ways are better than others, but none less legitimate. I would even venture that the Petit is a necessary precursor to the Healthsense. Perception without clarity is worthless .

[emotional leper]

The Petit Perception is not a Precursor to Healthsense -- the two are completely seperate abilities. The Healthsense is a spirtual ability. The Petit Perception is entirely physical. A Bene Gesserit Adept who was enacting BG Placid (an expression mask used to conceal completely,) cannot be read by another Bene Gesserit skilled in the Petit Perception, but someone with Healthsense would still be able to detected truth or falsehood in them.

[The Laughing Man]

First and foremost, we must be clear that we are using fictional analogies that aren't to be taken so literally, but whether with the spirit, or with the eyes, one must be capable of accurately interpreting what one sees. Logic and reason are required to understand anything, but especially that which is not logical or reasonable. The Petit training is necessary to the Healthsense so one can accurately and intelligently interpret what one is seeing. Both require you to be "highly trained to notice every little detail." The combination of the two add up to the ultimate ability to perceive completely, and most importantly, accurately. The only way to fully exploit any ability is to hone it to a razor sharpness. And since we currently, and seemingly exclusively, reside in the physical, that would only naturally be required as the most logical and reasonable place to start, as the very wise lurch has already asserted, as a simple matter of efficacy. I would hardly expect you to argue that a person with Healthsense and Petit training wouldn't be quite formidable against someone with just one or the other. Both require the same abilities, to perceive and interpret, and the better you are at "looking", the better you will be at "seeing", as the laws of consequence insist.

I personally think you are mistaken that physical and spiritual "seeing" are seperate as well. They are different, but both involve perceiving, and to be valid, both require accurate and intelligent interpretation. The source is the same. The physical is an extension of the spiritual, yet we have somehow come to believe the spirit is a product of the physical, and some go even further to assume they are two entirely seperate and "physically" unrelated entities. You also seem to be under the assumption that spirit cannot have intelligence because it's not physical, but since it does, how can you justify the discrepency? Intelligence is a physical product of the brain, no? Perceiving is done with the eyes, no? How can the spirit accurately perceive and interpret without intelligence and without the eyes, or more importantly, without proper training or knowledge (the brain)? Because they are not seperate, but we have indeed seperated them, and indeed forsaken one for the other.

The question of questions then remains: how could such a thing happen to a race? How have we devolved from "perceiving with our entire energetic organism" to just merely "looking with our eyes"?

[Menolly]

I'm with Es and Lurch on this one. Without a trigger in our world, we can only expect to achieve a spiritual healthsense through baby-steps in physical perception. But mankind should start somewhere.

[Esmer]

Amen, Sister!

[stonemaybe]

(A subject i know very little about:) Aren't there people who claim to be able to read the 'aura' of living things, and to be able to diagnose physical problems and mental states?

Does this not sound like healthsense?

Personally, I believe truthsense would be just as good for our world, as healthsense.

[Esmer]

I would venture they are the same thing, as disease and lies both vibrate in the negative.

[lurch]

The question of questions then remains: how could such a thing happen to a race? How have we devolved from "perceiving with our entire energetic organism" to just merely "looking with our eyes"?[/quote]

Survival for the individual and therefore the chances of passing on the bundle of information known as genes,,is less dependent on seeing an entirety as to its natural ability to provide and support a individual or family or tribe today. The meat display at the local supermarket does not require to be approached on a spiritual level.

Yet, the perception of a brown cloud dailey smothering a city by 9 am everyday isn't that difficult to have, and also felt by ones spirit, especially when a windy day comes along and a alternate is made clear. Realizing that brown cloud is just one of many many manifestations of a bigger situation of decisions with cause and effect ,,approaches the spiritual level. I know people who drive 60 miles to work , one way, everyday because they don't want the city existence nor do they want to bring their children up in such a environment...What of their decision making process is driven by the spirit?,,a basic sense of right and wrong?

The human brain's ability is unbounded, De-evolution may be a bit off. De-education,,control of knowledge, conform to the norm, etc etc, all contribute to how and what an individual does with what an individual perceives. In a very exaggerated way,(as all things of The Land) SRD's healthsense just raises a possibilty. And in there is the Hope.

[Relayer]

(A subject i know very little about:) Aren't there people who claim to be able to read the 'aura' of living things, and to be able to diagnose physical problems and mental states?

Yes, Medical intuitives can do this.

how could such a thing happen to a race? How have we devolved from "perceiving with our entire energetic organism" to just merely "looking with our eyes"

I'm sure most of us have had experiences like thinking about an old friend, who we haven't seen in years, and then they call or email us the very next day. You can call it random coincidence, or you can call it having some kind of awareness which science (and our physical senses) cannot account for. That's not strictly the same as a theoretical "healthsense" but it comes from the same source.

[The Laughing Man]

It is indeed my assertion that there is sufficient evidence that in our history this was "common knowledge" and that at some point, "something" happened to cause us to either lose this knowledge, or abandon it, and can't for the life of me figure out how such a thing could occur "naturally".

[emotional leper]

I'll be over here. Crying over Herbert's grave.

[The Laughing Man]

if you're going to take your "fiction" so seriously, I'd suggest you start here.

[Edelaith]

Alright, if one takes the analogy into literal reality ...

People would very quickly realize that everyone around them was a cotton picking liar, from start to finish. Remember the film Liar Liar? Imagine that on a global scale. Television and radio would convey the lie just as well as face to face contact, so there'd be no getting around the fact.
Motivations, such as greed, would become instantly apparent. Since greed and other negative emotions are so prevalent on this planet, that is what people would be bombarded with from the word Go.
Illness and sickness, in people and otherwise, are universal in our real world. And these would become obvious and inescapable.

Since there would be no way to shut this out, short of total sensory deprivation, and because there is no way to quickly alter things to resemble the Land - where people do not lie, are not motivated by darkness, and illness is not pandemic - a lot of people would go stark raving mad. Society would collapse into anarchy, which would amplify the negative images and input bombarding people. Countries would fall, cities would burn, economy and trade would crumble, and I think a large part of the world population would subsequently starve to death in the ensuing famine.
What emerged from the ruin would be a world where people were akin to the Lords, Woodhelvinin, and Stonedowners, albeit with high technology. They would be like the people of the Land, if only to remain sane in the light of their new perceptions.

People would simply have to adjust to the utter chaos of the sky, and the inherent violence of the sun. Perhaps a whole underground world would be established by those who could not do so.