FR First Impression

[Fist and Faith]

MEh? Wayfriend, you don't think the Theomach could have gotten to the Isle without Berek's help?

Also, I think the Harrow could have gone after either Staff at any number of points, and after Covenant's ring in either the 1st or 2nd Chrons.

[I'm Murrin]

Fist, I think one thing the Elohim said has some truth to it: The purpose of the one approaching the One Tree matters. Berek was the Earthfriend, a servant of Earthpower: he could approach the Tree. It's probably something like Roger being allowed into Earthroot because Linden was with him.

[wayfriend]

MEh? Wayfriend, you don't think the Theomach could have gotten to the Isle without Berek's help?.

That's exactly what I don't think.

The One Tree may be found only by those who do not seek the thing they seek, yet the Theomach resolved the conundrum by seeking the One Tree on the Lord's behalf rather than his own.

The Theomach used Berek -- the only guy around heading to the One Tree -- for his own ends.

Also, I think the Harrow could have gone after either Staff at any number of points, and after Covenant's ring in either the 1st or 2nd Chrons.

Agreed, but there's some question as to how long the Harrow has been around. If he's less than 3000 years old, then during his lifetime the Staff was not present, and the ring was not in the Land. And he has no time travel faculties.

[Fist and Faith]

OK, I gotcha. I hadn't considered that.

Still, it's difficult to reconcile these things. In TOT, we are given the impression that aHKA cannot be found by one seeking him.

"Yet the path which leads to ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol is unknown, has never been known. It is said that his path must not be known - that it may only be found by one who knows without knowledge and has not come seeking the thing he seeks."

That's all well and good. Brinn found what the Haruchai desired above all else by helping Covenant look for the One Tree.

However, as you just quoted, in FR, we learn that it is not merely aHKA that can only be found by those not seeking it, but the One Tree itself:

"It was the Vizard's word that the Theomach had joined himself to a great Lord in a land beyond our mountains to the east. In the Lord's company, he had quested far across the Earth, risking Nicor and the Soulbiter and many other perils to discover the hiding place of the One Tree. That alone, said the Vizard, was knowledge of surpassing difficulty, deserving accolade. The One Tree may be found only by those who do not seek the thing they seek, yet the Theomach resolved the conundrum by seeking the One Tree on the Lord's behalf rather than his own. For himself, he desired not the One Tree, but rather its Guardian."

But Covenant and Berek were definitely both looking for the One Tree, and they both found it.


BTW, this is from the GI, in August 2004:

We've been debating ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol's origin. Any chance you're willing to help us out? I don't know if it would be a spoiler to do so. Some think the Guardian was not aHKA until Brinn "conceived" of him that way. Some think aHKA was not originally a Haruchai. Some (me think aHKA was always Haruchai, and took on the job as the Guardian after Berek met him somewhere or other, and explained how important the job was.
____________________________

More interesting, I think, is the question of how the Haruchai even know of Kenaustin Ardenol's existence. Nothing in the record (i.e. the first six "Covenant" books) suggests that the Haruchai were aware of the Lords in the Land prior to Kevin's time--and if they had ever had any dealings with, say, Berek, they certainly *would* have been aware of the Lords. So we can probably assume: a) Kenaustin Ardenol him/her/itself was not Haruchai; b) the Haruchai know of the existence of this being (which, by the way, is not the same as knowing of the existence of the Guardian of the One Tree) through some interaction outside the known history of the Land; and c) this interaction gave rise to the supreme Haruchai honorific "ak-Haru". More than that I can't say at the moment. The Earth is a whole lot bigger than the Land, and (like the Land) it's full of stories. I can't possibly tell them all.

[wayfriend]

Dang it, I never noticed that -- it seems like SRD flip flopped the rules. First no one could find the Guardian, only the One Tree. Then no one could find the One Tree, only the Guardian. Hmmm... I hesitate to call it a mistake, but ...

Berek and Covenant found the One Tree, when they were looking for the One Tree, which seems to be the first version of the Rule. So the Theomach case seems to be the odd one out.

Obviously that GI quote refers to the Theomach. And obviously he told that particular story.

[dlbpharmd]

BTW, this is from the GI, in August 2004:

We've been debating ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol's origin. Any chance you're willing to help us out? I don't know if it would be a spoiler to do so. Some think the Guardian was not aHKA until Brinn "conceived" of him that way. Some think aHKA was not originally a Haruchai. Some (me think aHKA was always Haruchai, and took on the job as the Guardian after Berek met him somewhere or other, and explained how important the job was.
____________________________

More interesting, I think, is the question of how the Haruchai even know of Kenaustin Ardenol's existence. Nothing in the record (i.e. the first six "Covenant" books) suggests that the Haruchai were aware of the Lords in the Land prior to Kevin's time--and if they had ever had any dealings with, say, Berek, they certainly *would* have been aware of the Lords. So we can probably assume: a) Kenaustin Ardenol him/her/itself was not Haruchai; b) the Haruchai know of the existence of this being (which, by the way, is not the same as knowing of the existence of the Guardian of the One Tree) through some interaction outside the known history of the Land; and c) this interaction gave rise to the supreme Haruchai honorific "ak-Haru". More than that I can't say at the moment. The Earth is a whole lot bigger than the Land, and (like the Land) it's full of stories. I can't possibly tell them all.

That's a great GI question and certainly seems consistent with FR.

[Fist and Faith]

I'm glad he got to that in the book, because it was my question. Heh.

[Aleksandr]

But Donaldson didn't have Sandgorgons turn out to be the secret reason why every significant event in the Land's history happened.

He hasn't done this with the Insequent either. So far, in times previous to the setting of the current story, the Insequent, specifically the Theomach, have done exactly one truly significant thing: he helped Berek obtain a limb of the One Tree for the Staff of Law. That's it, as far as we know, and it's actually a better explanation than the legendary one given back in LFB, that the Creator somehow helped Berek make the Staff which violated the basic principle that the Creator can't do anything in Land.

We're talking about the entire canon of the Chronicles completely reinterpreted just for the sake of having a handful of "cool" characters.

???
Where are you seeing this? I read the same book you did and, yes, I have complained about the Harrow's elimination of the Demondim as a classic deus ex machina cop-out-- but otherwise I see no evidence in the story that the Insequent have ever done anything in the Land at all, apart from the above mentioned matter. In fact, I thought that was the complaint here: the Insequent are so mighty and powerful they should have been involved with the Land all along. And on the same topic, why is there no similar complaint about the Elohim? Didn't Findail's explanation about the Colossus and the Forestals involve a similar revision of past assumptions?

One would not expect that Berek's "awakening," the 7 words, the original Staff of Law, the reason the Bloodguard formed, the guardian of the One Tree, etc. were crucially dependent upon a heretofore unmentioned race of super wizards.

The One Tree is NOT in the Land and therefore should be free to have some history that the Land does not share. And unless I missed something Berek's communion with the Earthpower on Mt Thunder had nothing to do with the Insequent: the Theomach shows up in the tale a bit later and tutors Berek in Earthpower only. And nothing has changed with the reason the Blooduard were formed: all we get is the motivation for the Haruchai to enter the Land in the first place (something not explained before); their awe before its wonder and their veneration for Kevin are unchanged. (Moreover the Haurchai also come from a foreign country and should be allowed a history that does not involve the Land too)

Again, you're missing the point. No one is complaining that he invented something new--but rather that this something new is the reason why everything we know happened.

I see your claim as a considerable exaggeration. Only the Staff of Law is due to the Theomach's entry into the story (Yes, that's a big "only"). Would you be as upset if it turned out that Berek had first gone to Elemenesdene and gained the assistance of the Elohim instead on his quest for the One Tree?

But you've got to admit the Sunbane was orders of magnitude cooler.

I agree entirely, except I'm not sure "cool" is the right word. I've complained elsewhere that SRD has a done a poor job in depicting the nature of the threat this time around. I didn't want or expect Sunbane 2.0, but there should be something Big and Bad, not just a smog that obscures Earthpower, Roger Covenant the sociopathic, a few random time-storms, the Haruchai being bigger jerks than usual, Foul threatening Linden's autistic son, and a mad Elohim turning loose fire-worms in a forest. Those are all nasty things, but nothing has tied it all together

Re: why didn't they intervene on their own after the RoD, or TC's summoning, or on the Quest for the One Tree, or any of the other times that they'd have been a huge help?

You assume they were omniscent and were aware of such events when they happened. Also, you can ask the same question of the Elohim.

[Fist and Faith]

He hasn't done this with the Insequent either. So far, in times previous to the setting of the current story, the Insequent, specifically the Theomach, have done exactly one truly significant thing: he helped Berek obtain a limb of the One Tree for the Staff of Law. That's it, as far as we know,

I'd say a bit more than that. The Theomach taught Berek the Seven Words, and that's most certainly not the full extent of what he promised to teach Berek when he said:

"Third, I am a teacher. Much has occurred to you and within you that remains unexplained. I comprehend such matters, and I desire to impart my understanding.
...
And I state with certainty that you will never fully grasp the extent of your oath, or the import of your larger purpose, without my teaching."

Also, the Vizard sent the Haruchai to the Land. Their presence in the Land has been an extremely significant thing.

and it's actually a better explanation than the legendary one given back in LFB, that the Creator somehow helped Berek make the Staff which violated the basic principle that the Creator can't do anything in Land.

Yeah, I'm not overly happy with that part of Tamarantha's tale.

Re: why didn't they intervene on their own after the RoD, or TC's summoning, or on the Quest for the One Tree, or any of the other times that they'd have been a huge help?

You assume they were omniscent and were aware of such events when they happened. Also, you can ask the same question of the Elohim.

The Theomach knew everything that was going to happen. If he didn't, he couldn't have fit everything Linden, Roger, and JereCro (good name, DW ) did into what everybody in the future knew in order to keep the Arch safe.

[amanibhavam]

But Donaldson didn't have Sandgorgons turn out to be the secret reason why every significant event in the Land's history happened.

He hasn't done this with the Insequent either. So far, in times previous to the setting of the current story, the Insequent, specifically the Theomach, have done exactly one truly significant thing: he helped Berek obtain a limb of the One Tree for the Staff of Law. That's it, as far as we know, and it's actually a better explanation than the legendary one given back in LFB, that the Creator somehow helped Berek make the Staff which violated the basic principle that the Creator can't do anything in Land.

Actually I think he did one more quite significant thing: by taking Linden to Berek's camp he originated the legend of white gold and thus the fact that WG was known to Berek despite it being non-existent in the Land has been explained.

I quite understand the complaints that with the Insequent we now have another bunch of superhero guys with awesome powers and abilities rambling around it the Land's history. I agree that the much-much more humane Mhroam, Bannor, Foamfollower etc. were a lot more likeable characters with their shortcomings, mistakes, faith, character development etc.
But I still think SRD has kind of a balance here. Yes, we have some races and characters around with awe-inspiring capabilities (the Elohim, Insequent etc.), but for one even their combined powers do not match that of Foul utterly (he really cannot be destroyed by any means available to them), and for the other, for all the powers they have they all seem to pursue their own agendas and are somehow reluctant to _use_ all that power available to them.
And we still have those humane characters striving among all those powers. One reason I find the story compelling is that I can follow how these simple beings rise to meet the demands put upon them and become somehow much more heroic and powerful than all the elohim and insequent combined.

[exnihilo]

OK, I gotcha. I hadn't considered that.

Still, it's difficult to reconcile these things. In TOT, we are given the impression that aHKA cannot be found by one seeking him.

"Yet the path which leads to ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol is unknown, has never been known. It is said that his path must not be known - that it may only be found by one who knows without knowledge and has not come seeking the thing he seeks."

That's all well and good. Brinn found what the Haruchai desired above all else by helping Covenant look for the One Tree.

However, as you just quoted, in FR, we learn that it is not merely aHKA that can only be found by those not seeking it, but the One Tree itself:

"It was the Vizard's word that the Theomach had joined himself to a great Lord in a land beyond our mountains to the east. In the Lord's company, he had quested far across the Earth, risking Nicor and the Soulbiter and many other perils to discover the hiding place of the One Tree. That alone, said the Vizard, was knowledge of surpassing difficulty, deserving accolade. The One Tree may be found only by those who do not seek the thing they seek, yet the Theomach resolved the conundrum by seeking the One Tree on the Lord's behalf rather than his own. For himself, he desired not the One Tree, but rather its Guardian."

But Covenant and Berek were definitely both looking for the One Tree, and they both found it.


BTW, this is from the GI, in August 2004:

We've been debating ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol's origin. Any chance you're willing to help us out? I don't know if it would be a spoiler to do so. Some think the Guardian was not aHKA until Brinn "conceived" of him that way. Some think aHKA was not originally a Haruchai. Some (me think aHKA was always Haruchai, and took on the job as the Guardian after Berek met him somewhere or other, and explained how important the job was.
____________________________

More interesting, I think, is the question of how the Haruchai even know of Kenaustin Ardenol's existence. Nothing in the record (i.e. the first six "Covenant" books) suggests that the Haruchai were aware of the Lords in the Land prior to Kevin's time--and if they had ever had any dealings with, say, Berek, they certainly *would* have been aware of the Lords. So we can probably assume: a) Kenaustin Ardenol him/her/itself was not Haruchai; b) the Haruchai know of the existence of this being (which, by the way, is not the same as knowing of the existence of the Guardian of the One Tree) through some interaction outside the known history of the Land; and c) this interaction gave rise to the supreme Haruchai honorific "ak-Haru". More than that I can't say at the moment. The Earth is a whole lot bigger than the Land, and (like the Land) it's full of stories. I can't possibly tell them all.

F&F I think if you read carefully there is no contradiction. The path which leads to aHKA is the path to the One Tree. And, the Theomach sought the One Tree, not the guardian; he desired the guardian not the tree. The rest is fairly impenetrable.

[Aleksandr]

Re: The Theomach knew everything that was going to happen.

True, I suppose. And the Theomach was also sitting on the Isle of the One Tree from Berek's time down to the day Brinn cast him down. He was unable to do anything or intervene in any way. Or at least he was unable to physically show up in the Land and help anyone directly. More interesting to me is the question of why Brinn-Guardian did not intervene at the One Tree. It's a safe assumption he knew about the danger. His silence cost the life of Seadreamer and could have led to far worse. I think there's still some story to tell there.

[Fist and Faith]

His silence cost the life of Seadreamer and could have led to far worse. I think there's still some story to tell there.

Well, we know the Haruchai aren't concerned with individual deaths, so maybe the Brinn aspect of aHKA wasn't at all worried about such a possibility. Maybe he didn't even blink when Seadreamer died. But he trusted that the end would be what it was - another step taken toward the making of the Staff of Law.

[ninjaboy]

The whole thing is that the only thing we've had to go on about the history of the Land is stories and legends told by the Lords, the Bloodguard, Giants, Elohim etc.. And what these guys have said has sometimes not been the complete truth, and, as we've mentioned, the Bloodguard and Elohim have retained some of their knowledge for their own purposes. And it's extremely doubtful either Elohim or Insequent would've helped the Lords against Foul..

Only know the Insequent have appeared do we lern more about their involvement (Berek, Staff of Law, Guardian..) and through their interaction we see that they do more (such as the legend of the Unfettered Ones, and White Gold) through their actions, and simply choose not to speak of what they have done. We have no history of Knowledge of the mysterious man who helped Berek because they choose to conceal themselves..

Maybe they didn't interfere with the Staff of Law or White Gold earlier because they knew of the intentions of Covenant and Linden and approved..

Either way it's likely that they HAVE been more involved in the Lands history than we know, there may be a lot more things they are responsible for - they may have aided other figures at other times for other reasons, and for their own purposes kept their involvement hidden.. It's not a HUGE step to take to accept that.

Anyway I'm annoyed that you can't recieve guidance from the Dead in Andelain anymore.. that was cool..

[mczet]

To me, alot of it is making what was wonderful myth, food for the imagination, and turning it into the mundane. We had the One Tree, this mysterious place that nobody knew the location of. In the Second Chron, our intrepid group is like Odysseus sailing into the unknown. Now we've got a whole bunch of "One Tree? Yeah, seen it, bought the tee shirt" folks running around.

Heck, I can understand why the Elohim don't get involved. They said it themselves that they are far to self absorbed to care about anyone else getting pounded under Foul's fist. But I can't really understand why the Insequent DO get involved. It is just to honk off the Elohim cause they won't? I would not worry about Linden's arrogance of power when one has the Insequent tooling about. If Foul's so hot, then he's certainly factored them in, and if their so darn smart and powerful, then they would know.

And really. Why are they popping out from behind every tree now when their was just as much power and peril in the Land in the previous books? It seemed really much more suspenseful when we spent fifty pages being stalked though the swamp by one mysterious baddie than when we are being trailed by a herd of Skurj.

[MsMary]

Actually, I think time travel served the story better in Runes. It was necessary to retrieve the Staff. It wasn't a gimmick to take a tour through "olden times" and meet characters who are already long dead.

I disagree. I never really understood why Linden had to go back in time to get the Staff in ROTE. Surely the staff was still in its hiding place in the present. Maybe its wayhim guardians were extinct. Maybe not. Esmer or some other knowledgeable person should have been able to guide them to it. And then he could still have brought on his little betrayal to compensate.

It's not a sure bet that the Staff would still be in its same place. And why would Esmer agree to tell them its location? He hasn't exactly been cooperative about telling things.

I do. I don't think Berek ever made a staff of his own. The quest to the Isle of the One Tree was a bust for TC, why would it have been any different for Berek? Since we now know what the deal with the Guardian is, I'm willing to bet that he was placed there only to prevent the awakening of the Worm (and apparently, only to prevent TC's party from doing so).

Findail and Vain have always been the Staff, the EarthBlood provided requisite Earthpower, the Forestal provided the runes, and it's no mean feat to imagine how Berek received the Staff.

The question of the first Staff is discussed in chapter 2 of WGW, p. 31 in my paperback edition. Covenant and Linden are speaking to Findail. Covenant says to Findail:

"We couldn't get a branch of the One Tree. There was no way. But it's been done before. How did Berek do it?"

Findail paused at the wall, answered over his shoulder, "The Worm was not made restive by his approach, for he did not win his way with combat. In that age, the One Tree had no guardian. It was he himself who gave the Tree its ward, setting the Guardian in place so that the vital wood of the world's life would not again be touched or broken."

[dlbpharmd]

Right, MsM. And now, Findail's explanation (which makes perfect sense to me) is called into serious question.

[IrrationalSanity]

Well, that's Findail's explanation. Maybe it is consistent anyway. Could it be that the only Elohim there was the one Appointed to guard - maybe not the One Tree per se, but perhaps the route which provides direct access to the Worm. And Findail's explanation comes from finding out 2nd hand that the One Tree was there, too.

My theory right now is that the shell of stars (Elohim?) which the Worm consumed and excreted to become "the Earth as we know it" is thicker in some places than others, hence the extreme Earthpower that seeps through at such places as Andelain and Elemensdere (sp). Perhaps the Island of the One Tree is actually a respiration hole for the Worm? (Granted that turns the One Tree itself into something of a nose-hair, but who knows - that may very well be why the Worm was so sensitive at that point...)

[hamako]

first impressions? fantastic book.

as for there being no big baddy: all through the book I thought there was a huge menace hangin over everything - Linden.

She's the big bad guy type figure. Looks to me as if she is on a roller coaster to being the next Kevin but with bells on.

Wouldn't be surprised if we have at the last a whacking great confrontation between Linden & TC with the entire existence of everything in the balance. She appears to be on a landslide to blind destruction, hell bent on saving her son at all costs - be wary of love etc.

Brilliant stuff and superbly written.

[MsMary]

Right, MsM. And now, Findail's explanation (which makes perfect sense to me) is called into serious question.

It is, and I knew someone would remark on that. It's basically an Insequent's word against an Elohim's, isn't it?

But Findail's explanation makes sense to me. And maybe because the Theomach was not seeking the Tree for his own sake when he supposedly defeated the Elohim guarding it, it makes a difference.